Limp-Re-raise with JTs

Slumming in the $15/30 hold'em game waiting for the $6/12 stud game to start. /images/smile.gif Game is pretty loose and a bit more aggressive than I'd like. I'm under the gun with JdTd and limp. Next guy folds and a rather loose, rather aggressive player raises. Three late position players call, and one of the blinds calls. With five others in for two bets apiece, I decide to re-raise for value and deception. This is the first time I have ever made this move in hold'em. I sometimes limp and then re-raise in stud, usually when I'm the bring-in with a very strong hand, but I've never had occasion to do it in hold'em. There is a certain amount of grumbling when Mr. weak-tight limp-re-raises. Everyone calls.


The flop comes 9s9c7d, giving me two overcards, a gut-shot, and a backdoor flush draw. It's checked to me and I bet. The original pre-flop raiser calls, a late position player raises, and the next guy re-raises. The button and the blind fold. I grit my teeth and call, and so do the other two players. The turn is the Ad, giving me a flush draw. I check (I believe now that I should have bet, as people may fear Aces-full, and I have plenty of outs if called.), and it's checked around. The river is the 8d, completing the flush (and the straight, for that matter). I bet, and only the pre-flop raiser calls. Your comments sought.

I especially like to make this play with 76s in tournaments. The key is to do it with a multi-way (suited connector, small pair) hand when a player close to your left makes the initial raise, then gets a couple of cold callers (to insure multiway action). It's one of two limp re-raise plays that can be very useful. The other being when you have AA, KK, or AKs, call under the gun, get many callers, then get raised by a late position player or the blinds then you re-raise for protection and to squeeze out the multi-way type hands out of the pot who now are faced with two bets.

Andy-


I've come to view JTs as playable even UTG in most games. However in very aggressive games where pots are often being raised to create short handed situations, I think you should toss JTs. I'm not sure if this was the case in your game.


Personally, I wouldn't have the nerve to get past this flop after a raise and re-raise. Aside from potentially drawing dead from the get-go, one problem I'd have is that an eight while making you a straight, also makes 98s a full house. Another problem is that even if you make your straight there are still many ways to get counterfeited on the river. However, after you pick up the diamond draw, the pot is probably big enough to continue. Whether or not to semi-bluff this card, I think greatly depends on the chances of all your opponents folding. Either immediately, or on the river if you miss.

We mention this play in HPFAP. It's main purpose is to make the pot bigger so that is you get a flop that you like, such as a flush draw, it will encourage opponents to stay with you. However in loose games like the one you are describing they tend to stay with you anyway, so the play looses much of its value.

They won't fear Aces Full.

isnt that the idea of the raise? to build the pot so if ya hit the hand? ya want em to stay with ya and pay ya off. why not raise and build it? or are ya meaning that your giving them pot odds to call all the way? it seems even if theyre stayin in regardless, why not get the most in pre flop in this situation and make em pay even more? not sure i understand what yer sayin...


b

Not really. When you make the raise, you assume that you are immediately losing a small amount of money. You will make this back when you hit your hand (not top top pair, but a straight, flush, strong draw, etc...) and people will be forced to call with hands like bottom pair because the pot is so large. If your opponents will call with these hands anyway there is no reason to take the small loss to begin with.

You played the hand very well.


Limp-reraising with non-big suited connectors is a play I normally avoid. Part of the problem is legitimate raising hands tend to dominate JTs. If he has 88 or 99, you're drawing live to a pair. If he has AQ/AQs, AK/AKs, KQ/KQs you're drawing live to a pair but your opponent has pair redraws. Any other likely raising hand (AJ/AJs, AT/ATs, KJs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT) means your JTs is running into a brick wall. In your case, you said the raiser was loose-aggressive, so this may have been an appropriate spot for a limp-reraise.


When you limp-reraise, everyone is going to put you on AA, KK, and maybe AKs. When you bet the flop, and it's raised and reraised behind, they should be telling you that AA is no good. I would lean towards folding my weak drawing hand for two cold, based on that.


I'm Mr. Pound-Pound-Pound and Mr. Jam-With-Draws, but even I would have checked the turn, feeling I'm likely against trips or an overpair that will not fold. I don't see as many outs as you do - there is a chance that I'm drawing dead to A9s or 77. Also, if I indeed had AA or KK, they would expect me to check the turn. It seems like an ideal free card spot.


Based on the river action, I'm guessing the flop raiser had T8s or 55/66, the flop 3-bettor had 55/66 or TT-KK, and the loose-aggressive preflop raiser had AK or TT-KK or maybe A7s.

"When you limp-reraise, everyone is going to put you on AA, KK, and maybe AKs."


I play 20-40 and 30-60 in So. Calif. Most limp reraises in the games I play in are hands like J-Ts, or A-xs. Yesterday, one guy did it with Q-Q, but the other 3 times he did it (he was the only one limp reraising) were with drawing hands.


Am I correct in assuming you see more limp reraising with big hands in bigger games?

In Las Vegas, at any limit, an open-limp-reraise has a strong correlation with AA/KK. In 80-160, the players are a bit more creative, like I've seen others do it with 88/99.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Limp-reraising with non-big suited connectors is a play I normally avoid</BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Jalib,


It seems to me that you need to either never limp-reraise (which I don't think you do, since you at least used to advocate limp-reraising with big hands), limp-reraise with some non-big hands to vary your play (the situation in the original post seems to be the best imaginable for this) or play somewhere where the pool of players is large or unobservant enough that no one will pick up on your raising patterns (which I doubt is the case in the 80/160 games you play).


So, if you only limp-reraise with big hands (do you?), isn't it a problem for you that your opponents will know what you have whenever you do?

I prefer to always raise or fold when opening.


If the game is loose, I am forced to start limping with some hands, and so I will limp-reraise with some strong hands to balance my limps, and I will limp-reraise with some weak hands to balance my limp-reraises. Pocket pairs 88-JJ, AKs *and* AK, and AQs are some relatively weak hands that can limp-reraise to good effect in some games. They are not so likely to be dominated by a preflop raiser, compared to JTs.

You were incredibly lucky.

I make no apologies for this.