dull 15/30 KJo hand

[potato]

15/30 at Artichoke Joe's, we just drew for the button, first hand. I've played with a couple guys before, but none of them are in this pot. It's a full 9-handed game.

UTG limps, UTG+2 limps, I limp in CO+1 with KJo. Button and both blinds come in.

Flop is KQ6 rainbow. Check, check, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, I raise, button folds, SB agonizes for a minute and coldcalls. BB folds and UTG and UTG+2 call. 4 to the turn.

Turn is an offsuit 8. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls.

River is the hateful ace. SB fidgets for a second and checks, checked to me. Check or bet?

[7Dave]

I'd say you're smoked here, if not by a higher pair, by a straight.

/d

[stoxtrader]

I would fold this pre-flop. I think calling is your worst option as it gives KJo 4-6 way action - a hand that certainly does not want multiway.

Given you play, I would check the river. I think your king is good less than half the time, throw in the possiblity of a checkraise which would make you want to puke, and it's a check.

[Cohiba Al]

If he has the ace he will call or raise. You lose money by betting.

If he has the straight he will call or raise. You lose money by betting.

The only time you make money here is by a player mistake in folding a better hand, or calling with a worse hand to your river bet. This is less likely to happen than a call/raise that beats you. The downside outweighs the upside. Check instead of bet would be my move.

[astroglide]

hands that destroy KJ: AA KK AK KQ AJ
hands that commonly raise: AA KK AK KQ AJ

i'm definitely calling this after 2 limps

[Zele]

I've often been accused of missing river value bets, but this one seems like a clear check.

[arkady]

hey astro, i play KJo using the same mentality that you described, but have run into problems after I limp and its raised behind me leaving 2 or 3 players. After many hands I realize that its often a losing proposition to stick around - so, would you ever throw away KJ after 1 limper, you limp and a LP raise from an unknown?

[Barry]

If the SB hung around there with AJ, so be it. You're more likely up against KT, QT, QJ, or maybe another KJ. I also think that JT would bet the river.

So you're ahead more often than you are behind and you have 4 folks to potentially pay you off. I'd bet this river.

[astroglide]

if you limp and fold to a raise, you generally made a bad limp. in this case, you would be getting better odds than your initial limp if the co/button/sb do the raise.

[arkady]

[ QUOTE ]
if you limp and fold to a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

i like that, makes good sense. Not really sure what you mean by getting better odds if co/button/sb raise? Can you rephrase plz?

[astroglide]

when you call preflop, you are getting 3.66:1 on your money: 1 bet from utg, 1 bet from utg+2, 0.66 bets from the small blind, and 1 bet from the big blind. if the button raises and the blinds fold, you will be getting the original 3.66 bets, plus an additional 4 (1 from utg, 1 from utg+2, and 2 from the button) for a total of 7.66:1.

DO UNDERSTAND that if you know the button is going to raise, this is a very easy fold. this information should not be mistaken to advocate calling or betting with a raise coming just because you will have "increased odds".

if you know in advance about the raise, they are much worse. 2 from utg, 2 from utg+2, 2 from the button, 0.66 from the small blind, and 1 from the big blind for a total of 7.66 bets. you have to pay 2 for it, so you are getting 7.66:2 or 3.83:1 (with the knowledge that your hand is in very bad shape against a decent raise).

the point is to illustrate how incorrect it is to limp and fold to a raise, or raise and fold to a reraise preflop. unless you catch a wicked tell or have the book on your opponent, your initial action would be incorrect if you fold.

also, to answer the OP's question i would bet the river and fold to a raise.

[potato]

As I said, this was the first hand of the game, so I couldn't know for sure, but if this game is like any other AJs 15/30 I've played in, KJo in good position is not a bad hand to be in there with.

[arkady]

understood, odd wise.

but continuing with what you pointed out earlier and understanding that an LP raiser will have a larger variety of raising hands - is just having the odds to call a good idea? With a hand that could be so easily dominated? I just started a thread on the SS forum about which hands one would throw away after a 3 bet and you open raising in MP and most are agreeing that KJ is the first one to muck. Its a slightly different case than the one you are presenting, but from experience I can't help to think that even despite the proper odds this is not a hand I should be taking to battle against unknown/normal opponents.

[potato]

The SB coldcalled on a flop of KQx and 3 people called the turn on a KQxx rainbow board. What could all 3 of them possibly have that my KJ is still ahead of? When the SB coldcalled the flop, I put him on JT or a king.

This seems like a horrible spot for JT to go for a checkraise given that the ace might scare me from betting, and a checkraise is just going to fold everyone in between us (he's first to act and I'm last), but sometimes these guys just think "I've got the nuts, he bet every other street, I'll pop him on the river".

I could bet and fold to a checkraise, but with no read on anyone, that seems like a bad idea.

[Barry]

So...

What did you do, check I assume, and how did it turn out?

[potato]

Yes, as is fairly obvious from my responses, I was grateful to take the free showdown and I think I even loaded up my hand with some chips trying to get it checked to me.

SB showed 69s for bottom pair on the flop, BB showed Q4s for second pair, UTG+2 mucked, and I took it down with my KJ.

So my post was a "did I miss a value bet" post.

[astroglide]

AK is less than a 7.66:1 favorite over KJ individually. much of it depends on your opponents. will they raise worse hands? will they pay off with them? these are the things that would impact my POST-FLOP play, but i would see the flop.

[Barry]

Golly Gee they had even worse hands than I thought. Yes you missed a value bet here.

Also I think your loading up before the action got to you was very bad. If JT was out there, you just gave him a reason to try to checkraise rather than bet out. Of course you saw it as saving a bet if you were behind, rather than a profitable value betting situation, as you should have.

[potato]

To clarify, I loaded up my hand with chips after the SB (who I feared the most) had already checked. The situation I really wanted to avoid was one of the middle players betting the ace scare card in an attempt to steal the pot, and then I am stuck calling a bet with the SB waiting in the weeds.

That said, I agree with you and I think I should have bet.