First 150 SnG's Analysis Wanted

[aesic]

I recently decided to give SNG's a try. I got tired of the ring game grind and was looking for something with a possible lower variance. In the last 2 weeks I have played 150 (10+1) Party SNG's (I have a lot time this summer). I have been trying to average 2 tables at a time, waiting till level 3 to start the next SNG. I would like to start playing (20+2)'s but I figured I should get a diagnosis of my results before moving up (I'll probably move up in a week or so if everything goes well). Below are my results. I have made a very basic sideways histogram for visual people like me. Each "-" represents 2 in that place, each "\" represents 1 in that place. I would like as many comments/suggestions/criticisms as possible.

1-13 |------\
2-22 |-----------
3-27 |-------------\
4-15 |-------\
5-14 |-------
6-20 |----------
7-16 |--------
8 - 9 |----\
9 - 2 |-
T-12 |------

ITM: 41%
Profit: 200
ROI: 12.1%

I have not read TPFAP because I never planned on being a tournement/SNG player, but if I continue to enjoy and "do well" in tournements, I will be buying the book shortly. Thanks for the responses.

-aesic

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Your ITM isn't bad, but your ROI is horrible. You definately need to work on your play when it gets down to 3 handed and heads-up. You need a lot more first place finishes. That's where the real money is. Check out some of the posts on playing heads-up. They should be fairly recent beacuse I remember reading one a couple of days ago. For now, you should probably stick with the $10 tournaments and try to get more first place finishes before moving up to the $20 tournaments. Good luck.

[Sheriff Fatman]

[ QUOTE ]
Your ITM isn't bad, but your ROI is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a bit harsh - its positive and, as such, can't be described as horrible.

Room for improvement? Most definitely, but horrible is too harsh a criticism for me.

As for the rest of your advice, I couldn't agree more!

Sheriff

[TheDrone]

The most obvious comment I can make from your stats is that you need to improve your shorthanded play. When down to three, generally that means being more aggressive (stealing blinds, picking the right spots to push) as well as lowering your preflop calling standards a bit (e.g. if you are folding your blinds too much).

[Nemesis]

I have the same problem, however at this level and only 150 SNGs a few (3 or 4) bad beats that put you in 3rd instead of in posistion to win can really kill your ROI.

[aesic]

I was also wondering about why my ROI was so low given my ITM was 40% and now I seem to know the answer. Personally, I don't think I'm that bad shorthanded but I guess my results show otherwise. One thing that may contribute to this is that I feel that I am "good" at getting into the money by purely outlasting other players, but that often means that I'm the short stack when I get into the money. I guess it seems that I am more playing to get ITM rather than playing to win. Hopefully I'll try lowering my raising standards when it is shorthanded and see if that helps. Thanks for the responses. This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Any other overall suggetions?

-aesic

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that may contribute to this is that I feel that I am "good" at getting into the money by purely outlasting other players, but that often means that I'm the short stack when I get into the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very possible you're giving up some significant EV by trying merely to survive. And when you do get ITM, you don't have enough chips to stand against the other big stacks, so your chances for 1st (which is the biggest chunk of the money), are reduced. Even only few more 1st's in your stats, might improve your ROI dramatically.

So, you should basically look for good chances to accumulate chips, againt overly tight players (like yourself /images/graemlins/grin.gif, or rather: ex-yourself), and on specific bubble spots, where people worry too much about survival and getting ITM.

Also, during the earliest rounds, if you feel comfortable with your post-flop play, you might try and play some marginal hands for a small price, trying to hit big and take advantage of others' mistakes post flop. This is a bit tricky, though, and is dependent on your expirience and ability.

Only some suggestions, hope it helps.

[VeraN]

What does ROI stand for? And VP$IF?

[TJD]

PrayingMantis said

[ QUOTE ]
It is very possible you're giving up some significant EV by trying merely to survive.

[/ QUOTE ]

This also applies when you actually get INTO the money. The advice here is once you are ITM go for FIRST!

I forgot that yesterday when the final 3 players were something like 800; 2000; 5200. I was second; decided I had little chance of first and played passively hoping the small stack would be blinded out and THEN I would make my glorious thrust for first - WRONG!!

Big stack kept folding his SB to the small stack and when the small stack raised I folded to let the big stack deal with him, who then proceeded to fold!!

Result; I was 3rd and fully deserved it. I played like a plonker!

Advice from the heart /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Trevor

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Big stack kept folding his SB to the small stack

[/ QUOTE ]

If big stack doesn't understand his "duty" as a big stack, i.e, pushing smaller stacks around, then you, as 2nd stack, must take his place. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Otherwise, as you said yourself, you're actually helping the smaller stack to survive more, and also - you don't take advantage of the obvious leak in big-stack's game: folding too much, without any reason (unless he's colluding with small-stack...).

[Nemesis]

Don't take it too far though... i bust out 4th/5th because i'm already playing for first a LOT more than i have to. I think i also lose some second places that i could get if i wasn't overzealous to double through.

[Richie Rich]

If I'm reading this correctly, you made it to the Final Five about two-thirds of the time in your 150 SnG sample. And if I recall correctly, it takes about 45-60 minutes to complete a SnG.

So estimating the amount of time you've been playing on the conservative side (in your favor), you've spent 40min. playing * 150SnGs = 6,000 minutes or 100 hours of play time to make $200. That's $2/hr. That's essentially the same as earning 2BB/hr at the .5/1 stakes...were you doing better before in your ring games?

Trust me, I went through the SAME process myself. I thought that SnGs were more fun than the ring games. But after playing $10 SnGs for a month, realized that my BR had barely even moved. ALL THAT WORK, and little to show for it. So I starting "grinding it out" in the ring games, again, and haven't looked back ever since. Once you move up in stakes, the rewards will multiply...and so will your BR.

[Nemesis]

I think profit-wise ring games have much more potential, but fun wise and BIG paydays tournaments are the way to go. If you're good at SNG's it isn't a HUGE jump to being good at MTT's. Win just ONE (granted it's difficult) of the large tourneys and you have a life changing amount of money.

[Richie Rich]

I agree 110%. That's why I think MTTs are more "worthwhile" to play than SnGs. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nemesis]

also if you move up to 30 or 40 dollar sng's then you're making 6/8 bucks an hour which isn't amazing, but not horrible either... and can be decent if you get 2 going at different times.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your ITM isn't bad, but your ROI is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a bit harsh - its positive and, as such, can't be described as horrible.

Room for improvement? Most definitely, but horrible is too harsh a criticism for me.

As for the rest of your advice, I couldn't agree more!

Sheriff

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for my choice of vocabulary. I should have said, "needs improvement."

[Equal]

Great advice on this thread.

[aesic]

All there responses are great.

Praying Mantis: I see what your saying. I will loosen up and try to steal more blinds in the 4-6 people range to put me in a better position when its ITM. I personally don't like playing in the early rounds because even if I have group 1 or 2 hands, I get called by so much junk that I'm never sure if I have the best hand, and I would rather outplay them later than lose to someone who caught 2 pair or something rediculous. I even tend to limp in with premier hands and hope they hit because if I raise and I don't hit, I basically have to lay it down to a raise because other people could be playing with anything (assuming my premier hand isn't an over pocket pair).

TJD: I have found myself in this position numerous times where I'm waiting for someone to get blinded out, only to find myself being blinded out. I will be trying to loosen up on my raising/stealing standards so that this won't happen.

Richie Rich: This is a big question I am having right now, play all SnG's or play all ring games. One reason I like SnG's is beacuse there is always "guarenteed money." When I play NL50 at Party, I prefer that the pot avg's are $35+, and that often isn't the case. I also require that I play 3 or 4 tables at a time in NL50, and if the conditions aren't right, I usually don't play. These might be too strict standards, but its how I've been playing. With SnG's, there is always money to be taken. In response to your question I was definately making more than 2 BB/h at NL50. However, this month I am completely free (summer break with no job, my friends at summer-school, and waiting till mid July when I go on a real vacation) so I have had a lot of time to play. I have often found myself playing for 5+ hours a day. I got extremely bored playing multitable NL50, not to mention the games aren't "good" for 5+ hours a day. Maybe things will get better when I have a more normal schedual, but I figured this would be a good time to try SnG's (a lot of my friends only play SnG's so I wanted to give it a try). I would definately move up in to (20+2) once my game got more solid. I would assume that not only would I make more money, but also place better as time went on, so I believe that "2 BB/h" rate for SnG's would go up. During this month I have also tried 6 max games, but haven't made a verdict on those yet. I guess you can say that with all the free time this month, I'm trying everything, trying to figure out what I like and am best at.

In response to the idea of MTT, I'm not sure where I stand on those. I don't think I have the skill right now to do well in them, but I am also very curious/intreseted in trying and getting better at them. However, MTT seem to me a lot more like a lottery, and I have a hard time spending $25+ on something that will take me many hours, often to only make minor profits or even not make the money. Maybe I need to change my mentality on them, but as of right now, I think of them as a "splurge" or lottery that I play for fun in hopes of winning big, but realistically think I will come back with nothing.

Again, thanks for all the responses and I hope to get some more from this post.

-aesic

[NotReady]

ROI Return on Investment - i.e., buy in amount is 100, win 50, profit 50, ROI is profit/buy in, 50/100 or 50%

Voluntarily Put Money in the Pot - i.e., not a forced blind or ante

[SparkMan]

Besides not being aggressive enough on the bubble, the other thing that stands out is 12 tenth place finishes.
Are you getting married to AA or KK and can't release when they're obviously no good after the flop?

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your ITM isn't bad, but your ROI is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a bit harsh - its positive and, as such, can't be described as horrible.

Room for improvement? Most definitely, but horrible is too harsh a criticism for me.

As for the rest of your advice, I couldn't agree more!

Sheriff

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for my choice of vocabulary. I should have said, "needs improvement."

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but constructively, it is indeed horrible.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but constructively, it is indeed horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]-reffering to the low RoI

[ QUOTE ]
I recently decided to give SNG's a try

[/ QUOTE ]

Id say for someones first 150 SnGs ever a 12% roi is a great start.

You will get better, and there is some good advice here.

You are smart enough to ask for advice and analysis. Already you are a step above a ton of poker players.

[Sheriff Fatman]

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize for my choice of vocabulary. I should have said, "needs improvement."

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem - I just didn't want the original poster to be discouraged - after all he's a winning player so far, which is the first step.

Now, with all the excellent advice he's been offered, he has the tools to improve his ROI!!

I think I was just a bit grouchy when I posted yesterday after 3 consecutive 4th place finishes. Short-stacks sucking out repeatedly do nothing to improve my mood! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Sheriff

[aesic]

I didn't mind when he said "horrible" so people don't need to worry about him being too harsh. I wanted all comments, so I appreciate it. This is my first real attempt at SnG's and I have learned a lot from both my 150 SnG's and even more from the replies here. Thanks for the replies, and if anyone has thoughts to my recent large reply above, please comment. Thanks.

-aesic

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, I went through the SAME process myself. I thought that SnGs were more fun than the ring games. But after playing $10 SnGs for a month, realized that my BR had barely even moved. ALL THAT WORK, and little to show for it. So I starting "grinding it out" in the ring games, again, and haven't looked back ever since. Once you move up in stakes, the rewards will multiply...and so will your BR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Your observations are correct only if you are quite a poor SNG player (I hope your limit game is *much* stronger).

Good SNG players, playing multiple-tables at the $11 (say 3 tables), can easily make about $10/H and more, and they need a bankroll of only, say, $250, to be on the rather *safe* side. And I'm talking about the (almost) lowest buy-in's possible, you might make your own calculation for players who make it in the 50/100/200 levels, and they need MUCH smaller bankroll, than if they wanted to earn the same $/H in limit games.

For players who are willing to truely master their SNG game, it seems much more profitable than any other choice, IMHO, and with a much smaller risk.

[Cptkernow]

I sarted on the tens and have worked my way upto the 100s.

My win rate on stat king is logged at $42.64 an hour.
Half way through this month I moved upto 100s and my win rate for this month is 58$ an hour.

I doubt I could achieve anything close to this in ring play.

[Jason Strasser]

These are not bad results at all, I have two observations to add.

1) 150 SNGs is a small sample. You could be a losing player, or a player who wins a lot more. 150 SNGs will not tell that story.

2) However, the apparent trend is that you are too tentative on the bubble. There have been some recent posts by me (last 3 weeks or so) about bubble play and such. Just remember that when your stack is about 7-10x BB, all you can do is move all in or fold. My guess is that maybe you are being tentative, and settling for crawling into the money. You will see much better long term results if you had a few more fourths and fifths, and a few more firsts.

Keep it up, good luck.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not read TPFAP because I never planned on being a tournement/SNG player, but if I continue to enjoy and "do well" in tournements, I will be buying the book shortly. Thanks for the responses.

-aesic

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even reading the rest of the responses, but there really shouldn't be any "if" there, except for this: If you KNOW that you will never play in any tournaments again, don't buy this book. Otherwise, buy this book! It's already paid for itself in my bank account.

[slogger]

I think it's important to remember that you must vary your strategy from game to game based on the looseness of your opponents, the aggressiveness of your opponents and the relative size of your stack. Having a big stack with 4 to 5 players remaining can be a huge weapon when used correctly. It will increase you win rate (as opposed to your cash rate) significantly.

If your opponents are maniacs early, tighten up and get out of the way until you find yourself if a great situation. If not great situation comes along, lay low and wait until the middle/late stages to take advantage of anyone who thinks you're playing supertight. If you're still short when you're down to the bubble, make sure that you're the aggressor and not the caller. And try to attack opponents who are also afraid of bubbling (med and med/short stacks), as opposed to big stacks who can't be hurt badly by doubling you up and tiny stacks who are too desperate to fold anymore.

If preflop raises are stealing many pots early in the SnG, wait for an opportunity to open a pot in good position with a decent hand an attack. If blinds are for sale, buy some. Just don't get carried away when you're called and miss the flop.

If limping is standard fare, limp along when you've got good position and a hand with nice implied odds. Again, don't get married to mediocre made hands when you are facing many opponents for a pot. Flop big, or get out of the way.

If you're able to build a big stack early, be willing to open more pots when its folded to you, but be aware of the tendencies and stack sizes of the players on your left. Be particularly aware of the tendencies and stacks of the players' whose blinds you're stealing. Beyond that, continue to play premium hands and spend time watching your opponents play. Once you're down to 5 players or so (assuming you've been able to maintain or grow the large stack), you should know the remaining players fairly well and you should be attacking the tighter players with medium stacks.

And like everyone else has mentioned, aggression is the most important characteristic of winning player when the game becomes shorthanded. Just make sure you're the one attacking and not the one defending.

[aesic]

Thanks a lot for the responses. After reading the responses,I have had as many 1st's as 2nd and 3rd combined. Granted, its only 20 or so SnG's, but I still think that these comments have helped greatly. Thanks again for the comments and I'll be sure to post any more questions I have after seeing how much this post has helped me.

-aesic

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Good to hear it. This place has helped my play tremendously too.