Shortstacked 5/6 handed button all in

[amirpc]

I've been having this problem a lot lately on the $10+1s on PP where my best hand all tourney has been something like A2o.

The big problem is if I'm on the button with a halfway decent 5 way hand (TQs, JKs) and I push, any ace on the blinds always calls and I've lost 4 in a row this morning this way (the most frustrating losses, 4th and 5th place).

What hands do you guys consider "pushing" hands when you're shortstacked and on the button and you KNOW that the blinds will call? I've been basically doing it with any hand I'd position raise with in a shorthanded limit game on the button when its folded to me - JKo, any pocket pair, etc etc.

[Hood]

If this truely is the case (it seems looser than the 10+1 games I play on Party), then just wait till you've got an A with a half-decent kicker, and you should be a favourite when you get called. Although you say often your best hand all tounry is A2o, this is just a very bad run of cards.

In the second half of the post you say "what hands should you push with ... when you know the blinds will call?". If the blinds will call with *anything*, then KJ & TQ look like good hands to push with when your short-stacked, as your favourite to double-up.

[pdubz]

It's been a while since I've played 10/1's but as I recall I was never short-stacked by the time it hit 5-handed. If you've been playing tight + aggressive, you ought to not be short stacked -- especially if you've not had any cards to see pots with. That being said if you get involved early with a short-stack push, or the players happen to have been resilient, its easy to be in problems when its 5-handed.

If I do find myself short stacked -- and I do mean short stacked -- I'm definitely going to button push with any hand higher than KJ, including any pocket pairs, unless I have some great read. If he's calling with ace-x's, well I don't mind at all. Remember you are short stacked and without options, and these are gambles you have to make. In all likelyhood he doesn't have the ace or pocket pair and so if he does call you should expect to be ahead. If the last 5 times you've made this play and they've flipped over hands that outkick you, you still shouldn't be phased. That's just a bad luck of the draw. More often than not I expect them to fold, you take your blinds or them to call with any TC and be behind.

"What hands do you guys consider "pushing" hands when you're shortstacked and on the button and you KNOW that the blinds will call?"

It's five handed and your BB -- three more hands and you're about to get hit by a nasty and disgusting blind that will make your game now unplayable. I will probably not make a move here if anyone has limped/raised because I'm now probably behind -- but if everyone's folded to me, this is a golden opportunity to move all my chips in.

An important note -- going all in here is only true when you are actually short-stacked. I generally think of myself as shortstacked when I'm at 4, maybe 5xBB and everyone else has a larger stack than me -- something like 500 chips when blinds are 50/100. If that seems kind of small, remember that I'm expecting to be ahead when I next push -- doubling me up to 1000, a very playable position. If they fold, then I can survive another round of blinds.

Peace.

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
I recall I was never short-stacked by the time it hit 5-handed.

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If that statement doesn't send off warning bells in your head when you read it, you really should read 2+2 more. Good players, the best players will be shortstacked at some point in almost all tournaments. I would venture to say that 6 handed, I am either 4th, 5th, or 6th a majority of the time. Being a good sng player is all about playing shorthanded and shortstacked.

In terms of pushing shorthanded, you have to be aggressive. My goal when I'm short stacked is to steal enough blinds or win enough hands where my all-in has folding equity. There is no fixed line where I feel like I've lost all chance the blinds will fold to my all in (probably a stack around 2-3x the BB). If I drop into the "no chance they will fold" place, I actually tighten up a bit. Here is what I mean:

If my raise has folding equity, and its folded to me, I will push (off the top of my head, it can sometimes be any 2 cards depending on blinds):
Any ace, any king, and pair, and suited connector 56+, any 2 broadway...

If I drop into the "no folding equity" zone, and I'm not in the blind, I'll go in with:

Any ace, any pair, K8+, Q9+, JT. The logic is that when I get into the blind, I will be forced to call most any bet, and I probably have just as good a shot to double up there as I do pushing a mediocre hand with no folding equity. Plus, especially on the bubble, sometimes weird things can happen and you can find yourself in the money somehow with the time you've bought by waiting a bit longer to put your chips on the line.

So push enough to stay out of the "zero folding equity" zone, and if you fall into it, tighten up a bit and go down fighting in the BB.

Gluck.

[holeplug]

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Any ace, any pair, K8+, Q9+, JT

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Do you do this even with A2o,A3o,A4o? Does the outside straight possiblity offset this? I used to wait for any Ace (K8+ etc etc) when I was in all in or fold mode but most of the time everyone would fold and one of the big stacks would call with A8,A9 etc and I'd have 3 outs left. I'd almost rather have something like 89o then A2o even though I still have to hit my hand. I don't know if this is bad thinking but most of the time it seems my Ace out is no good when I do this.

[Jason Strasser]

I'll definately take an A2o to war with the blinds. If they have an A9, thats great... But you cant assume that.

[skierdude1000]

If you know they will call with anything, you want to have an ace. Short stacked, I would push with pocket pairs probably 44 or 55+ and hope they don't hit their overcards or undercards! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif There's not much else you can do against calling stations. If they call anything, you shouldn't be shortstacked

[holeplug]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll definately take an A2o to war with the blinds. If they have an A9, thats great... But you cant assume that.

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Ok I read the original posters post again and didn't realize he was on the button. I agree this is almost an auto push with any Ace in this position. But would you still push with any Ace if you were UTG or UTG+1 here?

[Jason Strasser]

Well UTG 6 handed is not so far from the button. Neither is UTG+1. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I push.

[amirpc]

[ QUOTE ]

An important note -- going all in here is only true when you are actually short-stacked. I generally think of myself as shortstacked when I'm at 4, maybe 5xBB and everyone else has a larger stack than me -- something like 500 chips when blinds are 50/100. If that seems kind of small, remember that I'm expecting to be ahead when I next push -- doubling me up to 1000, a very playable position. If they fold, then I can survive another round of blinds.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was considering the shortstack range about ~650 chips with the blinds being 50/100. Thats about 6.5x BB which is many times around the table, but I sure don't feel comfortable.

Perhaps I am being a little quick on the button all ins with a stack that still has a little punch left in it.

[HajiShirazu]

Even if the blinds will call with any ace, it's still right to push with hands like JT, KJ, QT, etc. If they need an ace or a good pair to call you'll still get the blinds around 2/3 of the time, and the other times, you won't usually be more than a 40/60 underdog, usually you'll be better off than that.
The reason these hands are good to push with is because they offer protection against medium pairs and ace rag. If I push and am called, I would much rather have KJ than A6, because with KJ, I'm usually not going to be much of an underdog, while with A6, it can often be really ugly.
If they have to call, push with any ace, any king, any pair, and some other decent hands.