In this thread, flame my play [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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ddubois

06-28-2004, 06:20 PM

I tried to move up to 30/3 last night. It was a disaster. I placed 3rd in my first tournament. I was completley card dead (best hand AQs, best pair 55), but I sucked out on a KK and an AA to take their whole stacks, and aggressively stole blinds to stay afloat. Then 3-handed ran my AQo into AKs and another 55 into AA and that was that.

My next tournament some LAG was running over the table. He was raising nearly every hand pre-flop (except when I had KK and AK), and he got caught bluffing all-in his J-high post-flop, but wasn't covered and went right back to running over the table. I (stupidly?) got all in with him pre-flop with KJo on the button, but he had a real hand this time, JJ, and I was on to the next tournament.

<ul type="square"> TOURNAMENT #3:

I think I played pretty well this tournament, see link (http://ddubois.bounceme.net/poker/pty_06282004_03.txt). Alas, my screen name is revealed: P0K3RM4N. Put me on your buddy list and come take my money. I stole some blinds at good times, avoided trouble hands, aborted a steal attempt with ATo (good laydown, right?), got all in as a 7:3 favorite and lost. Comments on my play? Would you have stolen in the same places I did?

TOURNAMENT #4, HAND #1:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t930)
MP1 (t650)
Hero (t775)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t775)
Button (t1950)
SB (t935)
BB (t800)
UTG (t410)

The next tournament this happened. My read on SB is that he is very loose. This was only the 8th hand, but he had already raised (usually min-raised) 4 times and cold-called once.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to t125, 3 folds, SB calls t115, 1 fold,

I have an idea for a new modus operandi. Tell me what you think of it: Never bet less than 200, under any circumstance. Regardless if it's level 1 and you are opening, re-raising, betting at the pot, anywhere. No one will take even an 8xBB bet seriously, and I can't risk giving someone implied odds (my whole stack) to "outplay me" by chasing and hitting some kind of drawing hand like a suited connector or small pair for a set, so I need to bet at least 200. Always. So what do you think of this plan?

Flop: (t265) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t300, Hero raises to t650 (All-In), SB calls t350.

Can I fold to this flop bet? He could be betting the pot with A9, TT, JJ, or semi-bluffing the OESD, right? Is it seeing monsters under the bed to fold?

Turn: (t1565) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1565) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1565
Main Pot: t1565 (t1565), between Hero and SB. > Pot won by SB (t1565).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
SB shows 8c 9c (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: SB wins t1565. 

TOURNAMENT #5, HAND #2:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t550)
MP1 (t1020)
MP2 (t825)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t520)
Button (t1755)
SB (t690)
BB (t1140)
Hero (t715)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 1 fold, MP2 calls t50, 1 fold, CO calls t50, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t350) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t225, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls t225.

Passive much? Ugh. I figured I had the best Ace since there was no raise pre-flop, but with that board I was paralyzed with fear. Do you push big to get out straight draws or two-pair draws? But I myself have a straight draw and a two-pair draw, so that seems... strangely ironic. The fact that I have this guy covered means I should through caution to the wind and if he has KJ, so be it, and I have redraws anyway. Correct?

Turn: (t800) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t275 (All-In), Hero calls t275.

River: (t1350) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1350
Main Pot: t1350 (t1350), between UTG+1 and Hero. > Split: UTG+1 (t675), Hero (t675).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ts As (two pair, aces and kings).
UTG+1 shows 4h Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t675. Hero wins t675. 
So a check-raise on the flop probably would have won me the pot, instead of chopping. The next hand after this one, I ran my KK into JJ and he hit a set, and it's on to the next tournament.

TOURNAMENT #6, HAND #3:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t760)
MP3 (t505)
CO (t176)
Button (t709)
SB (t740)
BB (t2505)
UTG (t885)
UTG+1 (t500)
MP1 (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls t15, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks,

Is it even worth seeing this flop for 15 chips with this hand? The AeloMagus guide says no, but I'm trying to find spots to open up my play some. Level 1 is where I experiment.

Flop: (t75) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets t50, Hero folds, MP3 calls t50, CO calls t50, SB folds.

Turn: (t225) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets t375, MP3 raises to t440 (All-In), CO calls t111 (All-In), BB calls t65.

River: (t1216) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1216
Main Pot: t558 (t558), between MP3, CO and BB. > Pot won by MP3 (t558).
Pot 2: t658 (t658), between MP3 and BB. > Pot won by MP3 (t658).

Results in white below: 
BB shows Kc 6c (high card, ace).
MP3 shows Ah 6h (one pair, aces).
CO shows 8d Jc (one pair, eights).
Outcome: MP3 wins t1216. 

TOURNAMENT #6, HAND #4:
Next hand, I do it again:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t745)
MP2 (t1216)
CO (t709)
Button (t725)
SB (t2000)
BB (t885)
UTG (t500)
UTG+1 (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, Hero calls t15, MP2 calls t15, CO calls t15, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t90) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t90, Hero calls t90, MP2 raises to t180, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls t90, Hero calls t90.

Ugh. I know, I know. Draws are death. Compounding errors. Warning, warning, danger, danger!

Turn: (t630) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets t150, UTG folds, Hero calls t150.

Pot is now laying about 5:1 because of my stupid flop calls. If I sucked out I should be able to extract another few hundred. And my ace out might be good.

River: (t930) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: t930
Main Pot: t930 (t930), between Hero and MP2. > Pot won by MP2 (t930).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ah 5h (high card, ace).
MP2 shows Ks 9c (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins t930. 

Two hands after this one, I all-in'd my KK into 55 pre-flop, and he flopped a set, and I finally waved the white flag and went to bed.
[/list]

So some bad play. Alot of bad luck. I do see a difference beteen 30/3 and 20/2; it's signifigantly tighter. There are few cases of multi-way flops, and some folding to the BB even during level 2-3. I will go back down to 20/2 and try to learn some more. Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

stripsqueez

06-28-2004, 08:20 PM

i fold A10s UTG early in a tourney - i need to survive no big raise to see the flop - to bet aggressively at the flop i need to hit the flop big - too many ifs

i lose the same with QQ and i usually minimum raise them pre-flop

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Hood

06-29-2004, 05:42 AM

I'll have a stab - (only just my opinion):

[ QUOTE ]

TOURNAMENT #3:
I think I played pretty well this tournament, see link (http://ddubois.bounceme.net/poker/pty_06282004_03.txt). Alas, my screen name is revealed: P0K3RM4N. Put me on your buddy list and come take my money. I stole some blinds at good times, avoided trouble hands, aborted a steal attempt with ATo (good laydown, right?), got all in as a 7:3 favorite and lost. Comments on my play? Would you have stolen in the same places I did?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't watched the tounrey, but generally ges, I'd say laying down ATo on a steal attempt is a good move.

[ QUOTE ]

TOURNAMENT #4, HAND #1:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t930)
MP1 (t650)
Hero (t775)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t775)
Button (t1950)
SB (t935)
BB (t800)
UTG (t410)

The next tournament this happened. My read on SB is that he is very loose. This was only the 8th hand, but he had already raised (usually min-raised) 4 times and cold-called once.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to t125, 3 folds, SB calls t115, 1 fold,

I have an idea for a new modus operandi. Tell me what you think of it: Never bet less than 200, under any circumstance. Regardless if it's level 1 and you are opening, re-raising, betting at the pot, anywhere. No one will take even an 8xBB bet seriously, and I can't risk giving someone implied odds (my whole stack) to "outplay me" by chasing and hitting some kind of drawing hand like a suited connector or small pair for a set, so I need to bet at least 200. Always. So what do you think of this plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a bad plan. If I get QQ, I'm happy for people not to take it seriously. I'm happy for 89s to be calling my 8xx BB raise.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (t265) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t300, Hero raises to t650 (All-In), SB calls t350.

Can I fold to this flop bet? He could be betting the pot with A9, TT, JJ, or semi-bluffing the OESD, right? Is it seeing monsters under the bed to fold?

Turn: (t1565) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1565) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1565
Main Pot: t1565 (t1565), between Hero and SB. > Pot won by SB (t1565).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
SB shows 8c 9c (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: SB wins t1565. 

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think I could fold to this flop bet, I would have raised all-in. Put it another way - If the flop came 942, or 864, then I recon he'd have made the same bet. I've been in the situation a lot of times and have been ahead most of the time. Although you could argue this isn't 'safe' play, being the first hand and you shouldn't jepodise your whole stack etc, I'd see this as a great opportunity to build a really nice stack.

[ QUOTE ]

TOURNAMENT #5, HAND #2:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t550)
MP1 (t1020)
MP2 (t825)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t520)
Button (t1755)
SB (t690)
BB (t1140)
Hero (t715)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 1 fold, MP2 calls t50, 1 fold, CO calls t50, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t350) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t225, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls t225.

Passive much? Ugh. I figured I had the best Ace since there was no raise pre-flop, but with that board I was paralyzed with fear. Do you push big to get out straight draws or two-pair draws? But I myself have a straight draw and a two-pair draw, so that seems... strangely ironic. The fact that I have this guy covered means I should through caution to the wind and if he has KJ, so be it, and I have redraws anyway. Correct?

Turn: (t800) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t275 (All-In), Hero calls t275.

River: (t1350) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1350
Main Pot: t1350 (t1350), between UTG+1 and Hero. > Split: UTG+1 (t675), Hero (t675).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ts As (two pair, aces and kings).
UTG+1 shows 4h Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t675. Hero wins t675. 
So a check-raise on the flop probably would have won me the pot, instead of chopping. The next hand after this one, I ran my KK into JJ and he hit a set, and it's on to the next tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got yourself in to this situation. AT is a horribly dominated hand. I *may* limp in with this in late position early on, certainly not UTG. And the blind is 50 - 7% of your stack. This is an easy fold.

The flop is a great demonstration of why AT is tricky to play - and horrible in first. Unless you have a good read on your players, saying that your probably ahead with no flop bet is quite a presumption against 6 players. There's straight draws, flush draws, a better top pair, 2 pair, set possibilities against 6 limpers. It's got to be a check/fold. Everyone's going to have a piece of this. Betting out the pot will cost you half your stack, so if you really want to play here it's got to be push. I don't fancy jeapodising my whole stack with top-pair-bad-kicker drawing to 2-pair or a gutshot.

But the only time I'd have to face this situation is if I'm in the blinds - the main problem with this hand is getting involved.

[ QUOTE ]

TOURNAMENT #6, HAND #3:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t760)
MP3 (t505)
CO (t176)
Button (t709)
SB (t740)
BB (t2505)
UTG (t885)
UTG+1 (t500)
MP1 (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls t15, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks,

Is it even worth seeing this flop for 15 chips with this hand? The AeloMagus guide says no, but I'm trying to find spots to open up my play some. Level 1 is where I experiment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arg, no. For similar reasons to the above. What flop do you want? a 7-high flop is pretty unlikely, and it would probably give a possible straight. An ace is obviously dominated and useless. 2 pair is good, as is set, but very unlikely (72o draws to 2-pair as well). All you've got going for it is drawing to a nut flush. And with 3 folds before you you certainly don't have the odds to do that.

[ QUOTE ]

TOURNAMENT #6, HAND #4:
Next hand, I do it again:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t745)
MP2 (t1216)
CO (t709)
Button (t725)
SB (t2000)
BB (t885)
UTG (t500)
UTG+1 (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, Hero calls t15, MP2 calls t15, CO calls t15, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks,

[/ QUOTE ]

See above for same explanation. Unless short-handed, Ax is a suckers hand. It's the hand you want your lose opponents to be playing so when they hit their ace they're willing to put in their whole stack when they're out-kicked.

Again, there is the consideration of the flush draw. I may consider limping with Axs under the following conditions:

* Blinds are small in relation to my stack
* I'm quite deep (so I get more implied odds on my draw - so i'm more likely to do this on Stars where I get T1500)
* I'm late in position
* Lots of limpers, no raisers.
* I don't fear a raise behind me
* I'm confident I can lay this down if I don't get a great hand/draw (nut, flush draw, 2-pair, set)

[ QUOTE ]

So some bad play. Alot of bad luck. I do see a difference beteen 30/3 and 20/2; it's signifigantly tighter. There are few cases of multi-way flops, and some folding to the BB even during level 2-3. I will go back down to 20/2 and try to learn some more. Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, minus the QQ hand, I didn't see a lot of bad luck in the hand examples. You put yourself in difficult situations, which I too wouldn't know how to play them. So to cover that problem, I make an effort not to put myself in that situation - i.e., don't play non-premium dominated hands. Don't play anything other than the top stuff (AA-QQ, AK, perhaps AQ on pre-flop-passive table) from UTG. fold fold fold fold fold. I think when one get more experience at post-flop play, especially in reading opponents and taking control of the betting, one can loosen up a little. But until then my inexperience would be compounded by playing too many flops.

Hope some of that helps and it wasn't too harsh. I think I'm in the same situation as you are with SNGs, so I can related to a lot of these problems.

BradleyT

06-29-2004, 09:23 AM

I think you're losing money if you aren't limping with Axs when it's not shorthanded and the cost to limp isn't going to be a large portion of your stack.

Jason Strasser

06-29-2004, 09:23 AM

ddubois,

I think each hand you mentioned above could've been played better. The common mistake in each hand is that you chose the hard way to play each hand, compounding mistakes.

With the QQ hand, you got very unlucky, but the one thing that jumps out to me is the gargantuan size of your preflop raise. The blinds are 10/15, and you make it 125 to go. When I see this, it is usually a mid pocket pair. You have a high pocket, but still this is too much of an overbet. If you get no callers, you steal 25. If someone calls to see a flop and there are overcards, this hand can be tricky. I raise this hand to 55 or 60. I still lose my money on this hand, but alas, I think it's a bad habit to raise this hand so much.

The second hand I fold preflop, or I raise. I am not a huge fan of limping UTG, although it isnt a bad play at a passive table. I will usually save it for pocket pairs, as I like the implied odds of chasing a set much more than having to run down a flush. I would say for you to limp in with ATs, you need to be a very patient and solid postflop player. My recommendation to you is that these hands are usually losers in this position, fold preflop. If your table is very tight, bring it in for a raise and take the blinds.

Hand three preflop is fine. I see no problem limping in with a hand like this early. I hope you can ditch the hand to any sort of significant raise. Very good flop fold, I'd say this was the one hand you played perfectly IMO. You only posted this because the ace came, but stop being results oriented.

This last hand is atrocious. If you are going to draw like this, then please fold preflop. This hand is going to lose you a lot of money in the long run played like this. When I flop a draw like this, I want to either be in a spot where I have put my opponent all in (with folding equity), or where I am in control of the hand so that I can check the turn through. I would've probably raised the hand to 200 on the flop and checked the turn. That's probably the cheapest way to get to the river, and you may win on the flop uncontested. If someone puts you all in on the flop, you might as well tag along as you have correct odds to draw. To simply hit check/call is not good.

My suggestion to you is to fold AXs until you learn to play them better. You don't need to chase all these draws, or play on tough flops with middle pair. Make the game easier.

Good luck.

Hood

06-29-2004, 11:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're losing money if you aren't limping with Axs when it's not shorthanded and the cost to limp isn't going to be a large portion of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

With Party's structure, I think it it is a significant portion of your stack (in the examples, around 2%). An in hand #3 it was short handed, in that 3 folded before it got to him.

durron597

06-29-2004, 11:34 AM

Alright, here's a response to some of the hands in your tournament (since no one else seems to have read it...)

First of all, I agree with the ATo fold.

In hand 708942150, you were dealt T9s in the SB, and the guy only minraised. I would consider calling here because you're getting 5:3 on the pot, and you could win a lot more than that if you flop a monster. I'm not saying you should do this everytime you get suited connectors in the blinds, but considering you haven't played a single hand in the whole tournament you might get some respect for actually playing a hand. I would also bet out if the board is 3-suited (any, not just diamonds), 2 suited diamonds, or if the flop is T high or lower; after which I shut it down no matter what he does. Otherwise I just check fold the flop.

Also, in hand 708943294, I would definitely try to steal these blinds.

I agree with your fold of the middle pair 8s to bigstacks101's limp preflop, raise on flop. Some people you want to play back at there, but I went back and he's been playing very tight, so it's probably a good idea to check fold that flop (Though I wouldn't be surprised if he had like... 66... nor would I be surprised if he flopped a set).

I want a second opinion on this, but in hand 708948421 you folded your BB to a minraise. This guy has been raising a lot, you might want to try a stop-and-go here. But I definitely want a second opinion. (He had 96o, with 6.5xBB before posting).

Finally, the last thing I want to say is that I think that you could have survived ("survived") your bad beat QQ hand if you had stolen more blinds. It looks to me like the table was playing VERY tight, and that you could have used that to your advantage to push-steal with nothing and take a blind or two. By the time you have 100/200 blinds, having a 600 unit stack is nothing to a big stack... but the fact that you pushed and won a round of blinds that way is evidence to the tightness of the table.

Beyond that, your QQ bad beat is poker, and thats why even the best players don't have 100% ITM. Sorry /images/graemlins/frown.gif

ddubois

06-29-2004, 02:54 PM

I didn't see a lot of bad luck in the hand examples

Yes, there was no bad luck in these hands. But I wasn't referring to the hand examples. I was talking about the unposted hands that busted me. Losing allins with 7:3, 5:1, and 5:1 is a rough night. I also forgot to mention running my QQ into AA in level 1, but that was my fault, he limp re-raised all-in, I should have known better to lay it down.

but the one thing that jumps out to me is the gargantuan size of your preflop raise

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this. True or false: The more I raise, the worse implied odds inferior hands (ones that need help) have to chase "good flops". The less I raise, the easier it is for tiny pairs, suited connectors, AXs, one overcard hands like KJo, etc. to enter the pot and subsequently outdraw me. If I am a bad player, willing to lose my whole stack when my QQ flops up as an overpair, don't I want to reduce their implied odds as much as possible? I logically conclude that the better course of action is to bet more, not less. And that maybe I should even push! Please make me understand the error in my logic. Also, if I recall correctly, most people were raising 125 preflop, so my raise wasn't out-of-the-ordinary for the table, if that is relevant?

I would've probably raised the hand to 200 on the flop and checked the turn.... My suggestion to you is to fold AXs until you learn to play them better

Well, I want to play to learn. So I'll try semi-bluffing these hands more aggressively if I have a sense the table is passive and will give up to my action.

Finally, the last thing I want to say is that I think that you could have survived ("survived") your bad beat QQ hand if you had stolen more blinds

Thank you for reading the report, durron597. I'm finding I like reading reports more and more, as I get used to the "ugly" hand history format. You really get a sense of everything in context, compared to one hand at a time. And it's the plays that people don't think were interesting that were often actually the interesting ones.

I'm still looking at the quality of my hand before when I make my decision to blind steal. I guess I need to learn it's not always about my cards, but if I tried to steal with T4o and got called, it would be a real klck in the nads.

Thank you everyone for your comments.