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jdl22
06-28-2004, 04:56 PM
I am posting this here because I am a total newb in Hi/Lo games as well as Omaha.

So I decided to try to learn a new game (or 2) and picked up Zee's High-Low-Split Poker FAP. I have read the basic strategy section of the Omaha half of the book. As it would turn out this book is designed for relatively advanced players (who knew?!?!) who say have played a hand of Omaha before. Despite the fact that I hadn't I still got something out of it. I however do have some questions about both Omaha and high low split poker in general. As for background before playing a little yesterday I had never played any Omaha, neither high only nor high low split.

1. It seems the objective is to scoop pots. That makes sense, but then why are the best hands something like A234 DS? I understand the A2 because it can make the nut low but wouldn't something like A2KK be better in terms of picking up the high and the low? It seems in Zee's description and those sites I have read with preflop advice that it is all about getting the low and hopefully getting lucky and having the nut flush.

2. Zee discusses in the beginning of the General Concepts chapter 2 types of lower limit (< 10-20) games: those where people play far too loosely particularly postflop and those where people generally know what they are doing. Obviously the first type is better. Online are most of the games of the first type? Is it basically just a game selection issue to find them? I played some 3/6 and was certainly not the worst player at the table despite having played and studied the game for about 2 total hours. It seemed people were playing super loose given what I read (hands like 35JQ were being played which seem terrible for both high and low). Is that also true at higher limits online?

3. General Hi/Lo question, is the variance reduced in these games? I would expect it to be because the suckouts will sometimes lose you half the pot and not the whole thing. I'm thinking of a situation where you have the nut flush and the nut low and unfortunately pair your deuce losing you the low but not the high. Not sure how much that will matter in terms of variance.

4. When I was thinking about branching out (I play NLHE now) I decided to do so because I figured the play would be much worse in a game like O8, the reason being that it's really easy to make a nice second best hand on the high with 4 hole cards and that people wouldn't know how to adjust to the extra wrinkle of halfing the pot for the low. Is this solid reasoning?

5. How does the edge a good player has over bad players in limit O8 compare with limit and no limit hold'em?

6. Do you have any additional comments to make?

Thanks.

jedi
06-28-2004, 07:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am posting this here because I am a total newb in Hi/Lo games as well as Omaha.

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Cool, but you'd be better off posting in the "Other Poker" forum. The Omaha regulars will help you out better than in here.

[ QUOTE ]

1. It seems the objective is to scoop pots. That makes sense, but then why are the best hands something like A234 DS? I understand the A2 because it can make the nut low but wouldn't something like A2KK be better in terms of picking up the high and the low? It seems in Zee's description and those sites I have read with preflop advice that it is all about getting the low and hopefully getting lucky and having the nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the beauty of having the A234 is that it's got lots of backup for counterfeit low protection, and can still win high with a wheel. The KK hand will be vulnerable to straights, even if it hits a set.

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4. When I was thinking about branching out (I play NLHE now) I decided to do so because I figured the play would be much worse in a game like O8, the reason being that it's really easy to make a nice second best hand on the high with 4 hole cards and that people wouldn't know how to adjust to the extra wrinkle of halfing the pot for the low. Is this solid reasoning?


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I think it is. You're getting paid off by people chasing half a pot. I remember a hand where I flopped nut low and bet it the entire way just because I had 5 callers. I figured I had to split with at least one other low, but figured it was worth it because of the passive nature of the game. To my surprise, I won the entire low half of the pot, splitting it with the other high hand. The other callers had much crappier low draws and refused to fold. They might have been drawing to second best on both high and low, but the "escapability" of this game keeps them in the pot.

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5. How does the edge a good player has over bad players in limit O8 compare with limit and no limit hold'em?


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I think the edge a great player has over bad players in this one is good, but not great. I think the edge a good player has over bad players in this game is good, but not great. Basically, I think that it's more beneficial to be a great player in Hold Em, but a good player will get more out of Omaha. The great player's edge over the good player is much less in Omaha than in Hold Em.

benfranklin
06-29-2004, 11:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It seems the objective is to scoop pots. That makes sense, but then why are the best hands something like A234 DS? I understand the A2 because it can make the nut low but wouldn't something like A2KK be better in terms of picking up the high and the low?

[/ QUOTE ]

The object is to scoop. The best starting hand is usually considered to be AA23 double suited. It protects against counterfeiting for low, and has flush, straight, and AA possibilities for high. A234 DS also protects against counterfeiting and gives straight and fllush draws for high.

While A2KK is certainly playable, the A2 doesn't always hold up for low, and the KK, unless suited with the A, can be trouble for high. Even if you hit trips, you're often going to get beat by a straight or flush. Omaha is a game of flushes; if there is a three flush on the board, you can bet someone has one. And if there is a pair on board, you can be pretty sure someone has a boat.

Zee's book is must reading, but the Tenner/Krieger O/8 book is better to start with.

rr2000
07-01-2004, 02:12 AM
At least for online games, I think the players are not that bad (pacific poker may be an exception). So, though your variance may be a smaller, your win rate won't be high compared to hold'em. I used to play o/8 a lot, but I think I had enough of it. It's a patience test.

rr2000
07-01-2004, 02:15 AM
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Omaha is a game of flushes ; if there is a three flush on the board, you can bet someone has one. And if there is a pair on board, you can be pretty sure someone has a boat.

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you meant, nuts?

Kurn, son of Mogh
07-01-2004, 10:41 AM
wouldn't something like A2KK be better in terms of picking up the high and the low?

No. Too easy for your naked A2 to get counterfeited or quartered for the low, and since there's almost always an A in the pot, KK has a lot less value than in Hold'em.

How does the edge a good player has over bad players in limit O8 compare with limit and no limit hold'em?

If you want to master hi-lo and have the biggest edge, my understanding is the game where expert players have the biggest edge over typical players is Stud/8. besides, limit O/8 can be like watching paint dry, while Stud/8 exercises your entire brain.