Hand from Party Multi $30/3 for review

[Colby818]

I didn't download hand history, so this is all from memory, but my memory is quite clear here. I'm just posting pre-flop and flop, because I want to hear other's thoughts.

12 players left in Party $30/3 NL 3 table - Blinds are T100/200

Hero is SB with ~3100(4th at table and 5th overall)
Hero is dealt 88

UTG folds
UTG+1(~3300) raises to 400
UTG+1 hadn't been playing many hands, so I didn't have a great read, but seemed to play the pots he was in well.
UTG+2, CO fold
Hero calls
BB folds

flop came J-8-Q(rainbow)

Hero checks
UTG+1 raises to T600
Hero raises to T1800
UTG+1 pushes all-in

I thought for a moment. It didn't seem to me that this player would play QQ or JJ for a minimum raise pre-flop. I also expected that if he did have one of those that he might slow play it. I put him on either KK AA AK or AQ.

I called the all-in.


What do you guys think? Would you have laid down the trips here? That would have only left me with ~1400, though I did feel I had a chance of building back up if I lost it. But, I felt that if I hit it, I had a substantial chance of a win or a top 3 finish.

I'll post results later.

[Jason Strasser]

Colby!

I have to admit, I have played one multi sng on party, and well I lost right away. But I will give this a shot...

Everything here seems to say that you are ahead. This player could have AQ, QJ, etc. There is a small chance the person raised the min with QQ or JJ, but that is very rare and very tricky. Most players will reserve that for AA and KK, which you are killing at the moment.

If by the odd chance your opponent has a straight, you have plenty of outs. I think there is only one way to play this hand, and that is the way you played it. Solid betting and raising amounts IMO.

Good job.

[deacsoft]

If the guy hasn't played many hands yet you DO have a read! He's a tight player who probably comes in with monster hands, and in addition to that, you said he plays well post flop. MUCK IT PREFLOP. I've seen very good players lay down more than 8-8 preflop due a "rock" openraising from EP.

Since you did play it you have to push-in now. You hit the hand you were looking to hit so why wouldn't you? If you thought he had A-A or K-K why did you call preflop? I don't like anything about this hand.

[Jason Strasser]

Your logic is way off. If the player in question has AA or KK only, and I know it, then I would call with all sorts of hands preflop. For instance, 22. Or 67s. If I was 100% sure, I'd call with anything that didnt have an ace or a king with it. Of course, you can never be 100% really...

You're really saying you'd fold 88 here preflop to a minimum raise? Thats a horrible, horrible, horrible fold. And its horrible for the reasons you mentioned... Your opponent has a monster!

[Colby818]

Thanks for both replies Jason. As I've said in the past, I value your advice. And I especially appreciate your defense of my play. I consider myself very good at getting away from hands after the flop if things don't feel right, but I was afraid I played too aggressively because I had been on a bit of a hot streak and tried to get fancy.

Because he was playing tight, like I said, I thought he was on AA, KK, AK. I was more than happy to donate T400 to him and fold if I didn't improve or if we both improved. Even if the board flopped AAK, putting me in big trouble against my read, I'd have still had ~2000 chips, would have still made the final table and still had some chance of winning money.

I will grant that if he had AK, he would have had 4 outs to beat me, but if he were on AA or KK, he was down to 3. And if he was on AQ or AJ he was down to 2. By every hand I could imagine him playing to a min raise at that position, I was ahead.


For what's it worth, the one hand I didn't envision being played this way was TJo. He flopped a straight on me, and bet it like TPTK. I hated his preflop play, but loved his postflop play, though if I hadn't caught a piece of the flop, I'd have been out of this hand, so maybe he should have waited for me to make the first bet. I presume he was content to just take it down though, or to force me to play big to play back at him.

[Sam T.]

Looks good to me. My guess is he's got AA or KK, perhaps AQ, and likes his chances with TPTK and a backdoor str8 draw.

Out of curiosity, what is your impression of the three-table tourneys? I rarely have the time for full multi-tables, and these seem like a nice middle ground. (And how long do they last?)

Hope the hand worked out for you...

[Sam T.]

Do you mean T9o? TJ would give him a pair of jacks, not a straight.

[Jason Strasser]

No problem Colby. I like how you went with your read. Here is a part of a PM Tommy Angelo sent me about trusting "tells". It has to do with live poker and such, but the way he trusts his reads and tells are what I admire:

"The only way I play poker is sitting around a table with breathing people. I don't think that "winning poker" "is" some percentage tells and some percentage other. I think it is all tells. 100%. Everything every opponents ever does or does not do, whether they choose to raise, or fold, slowly or quickly, with a remark or not, every possible thing, including their betting, is just one more piece of information that I process, or not, use, or not. It's stuff that tells me what they have. I don't know how to define the word "tell" in a meaningful way that doesn't include a bet as a tell, since every bet I ever see is done is some particular fashion that might or might not give me information about what the opponent has. "

It doesn't directly apply to anything here, except to have full confidence in your reads and to follow through. Gluck.

[Phil Van Sexton]

You start with 3100, call 400 pre-flop, so that leaves you with 2700.... and then you raise T1800 on the flop?

I'm suprised that strassa agreed with this bet size. I would always push rather than bet 66% of my stack. Is there a reason not to push here?

[Jason Strasser]

That's very true... I wasn't following stack sizes as closely as I should've. This is probably a push spot. Although in this case, it seems like this chips are going in regardless--however Phil is absolutely right. Thanks for catching me.

[Colby818]

T9o was his hand. He flopped the straight and I was out.

Jason, I like what you posted. I feel the same way, and I do feel quite handicapped playing on the computer for the reasons this guy was saying to you. I read people very well. I'm an insurance adjuster by day, so I get paid to make quick impressions of people. I don't think the average person realizes how much information he is giving me at the table when he talks to me.

But really, that's the whole game right? Your opponent bets. And he bets like he has a particular hand. It is your job to analyze the possibility that what he is currently betting/representing is consistant with what he has bet previously. Any 'tells' just add to that. Preflop, you obviously can't analyze bets like this, because preflop he can literally have any 2. Post flop, you play back his current bet, relative to his first bet and see if it makes sense, and if he has what he is representing, if you can beat it.

In response to Sam. I've found that the 3 tables are suited fairly well to my game. I have a pretty limited bank roll, so I haven't been able to really play them much. I won some money in a live tourney this weekend, so I indulged myself.

The 3 tables tend to last ~2 hours. I had one go longer than that, and I won one yesterday in just under 2. I find that I play just tight enough that I'm almost a lock to get to the final table(10/13 final tables). I'm stepping up my aggression lately, so I'm thinking I might be able to string together some cashes in these. Just don't have the bankroll to chance it. I've only cashed 3/13, with 1 1st, 1 2nd and 1 5th(I went in with two buddies on the 1st, splitting the cost and the winnings, so I don't get the huge bankroll boost).

As for the competition at these 3 tables, the play seems much better than what I see in the $5/1 and the $10/1. But, I still am always left with the impression that I'm either the best player at the table or one of the best, so it's far from unbeatable.

[fnurt]

You can fold a set on the flop maybe 0.1% of the time, and I think this hand falls pretty easily within the remaining 99.9%.

[Sam T.]

Raising T9o? Looks like he was using his tight reputation to steal the blinds. He can't have been happy when you called. Back luck, but as I said, I don't see how you avoid it.

[Colby818]

Phil, I'm very conscious of the stack size/relative to push vs. big bet. I'm probably fuzzy on the numbers. I probably was slightly bigger stacked than what I posted. I thought I recall my raise being like 35-38% of my stack.

That said, I do one thing a little differently than some of the guys on this site advocate. I don't alway push the whole stack. I do however decide if I'm willing to push. There was no bet here that was really going to push me off of my bet. I've had more luck drawing the push with the midlevel bet than the all in with these situations. I really thought I was ahead, and I really thought that he thought he was ahead and would come over the top all in. I was afraid that if I went all in though, I would convince him that he was wrong and he'd lay down.

I _know_ this is a risky way to play it. And I _know_ it's not by the book. But, I've had a lot of luck with it, and it suits my style well.

At any rate, contrary to what I posted, there was definitely enough room for me to make the 3x reraise and be under 40% of my remaining stack(though I know it was real close).

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is way off. If the player in question has AA or KK only, and I know it, then I would call with all sorts of hands preflop. For instance, 22. Or 67s. If I was 100% sure, I'd call with anything that didnt have an ace or a king with it. Of course, you can never be 100% really...

You're really saying you'd fold 88 here preflop to a minimum raise? Thats a horrible, horrible, horrible fold. And its horrible for the reasons you mentioned... Your opponent has a monster!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because if you hit a monster on the flop, you can get all his chips? In this case our hero can only get 3100 in chips if he can get his opponent to call an all-in. If you knew your opponent had AA or KK, then that doesn't seem like enough in implied odds.

[tubbyspencer]

I think you have to call here. Yes, you’re hit hard if you lose – but you’re not out. And more importantly, you greatly increase your chance of first or second place where most of the prize $ is concentrated(9x buy in for first, more than 7x buy in for second).

I think the push or not decision comes down to whether or not you feel pot committed. If you can’t get away from the hand, it’s simple, you push. But don’t forget to SOMETIMES lay the hand down if you don’t push(this is one of my personal common errors).

[deacsoft]

My apologizes. I completely over looked the fact that the blinds were 100/200, and that it cost very little for you to call. I also greatly misinterpreted when you put him on the hand you did. I thought you put him on the hands you mentioned preflop. Please disregard my last post. It is completely incorrect.

After making note of the previously over looked factors...
1) good call preflop
2) consider pushing in right away post flop but it looks like you played the hand fine

[Colby818]

Ok, this is the weirdest post ever. Let's not read too much into implied odds on playing AA or KK here and if that was a right read. I'll boost some of the implied odds up in my own head based on my relatively large margin of error on my reads on people.

My read on his bet was based largely on my experience of other Party players and what the minimum bet represents. I find that often the minimum bet represents a great hand. The majority of the other times I see it, it's just crap. Though in this case, it looks like his attempt was to build the pot for himself on a draw, similar to the way I play flush/straight draws in ring games. I don't see this much in NL. I think that was one of my questions... is if this happens more at high levels or if maybe I just happened to run into a limit/ring game player sitting at a NL game and not adjusting his game.

I had probably only been sitting with this player ~20-25 players as he wasn't on my first table. He hadn't played many hands. I really had very little read on him. Probably more assumptions than read.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the advice. I'm impressed my little post got as many replies as it did. Glad I could stir at least a little debate/thinking.

[WarmonkEd]

Well, I was really just responding to Strasser's comment that he would play a wide variety of cards even if he KNEW his opponent had AA or KK. I was wondering about the logic behind that.

[ZeeJustin]

Folding your set on this flop would be attrocious. However, I am guessing by the tone of your post that you lost. Irrelevant. Folding is still bad.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
You're really saying you'd fold 88 here preflop to a minimum raise? Thats a horrible, horrible, horrible fold

[/ QUOTE ]

i fold pre-flop - theres 700 in the pot and it cost me 300 to see the flop - i'm out of position with a guy left to act behind me

my plan is to basically fold on a flop that doesnt contain an 8 so looked at in terms of odds the 8/1 or so that an 8 flops isnt great - i well understand what implied odds are and the sense behind the notion that you want your opponent to have a good hand like AA so you can gaurantee those implied odds when you hit - but - even if i hit an 8 i still havent won the pot, and i certainly have yet to get all his chips in

i would rather protect my chips - you are still in a position to exert considerable pressure on the little stacks coming fifth whilst waiting for a better opportunity to mess with the big stacks

post flop i think your play is auto

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Jason Strasser]

This is more of a ring game concept, but because the blinds weren't huge compared to stack size allowing a little play, it is relevant. When I play AA or KK, especially in my earlier days, I was like a man with a target sign on my forehead. People playing with me had incredible implied odds to chase me, because I never folded. Many players are like that--if you are with a player who is so tight you can put him or her on AA or KK, then you should be looking to exploit them if you can see the flop cheap. The idea is that if you make your hand, they will always pay you off.

[La Brujita]

I have not read the other responses but I would have check raised all in. I don't like check raising for half your stack. I have never played the 3 tablers so take it fwiw.

I have just seen so many people call with draws that it is hard to lay down middle set and even if you are against a made straight you have a redraw. Frankly JJ is what worries me most.