Pocket 8s to the stupid end . . .

10/20 game at Foxwoods. Usual mix with one good pro and two great non-pros, if you know what I'm saying. The rest of the table is "OK".


MP - look down at 88. One limper before me, I call, the cutoff calls, the button (this is the pro) calls, SB completes, BB checks. We see the flop 6 handed.


Flop 9-10-J rainbow. Checked to me. I bet. (Discussion?) Cutoff calls, Button raises, blinds fold, I re-raise (Discussion?), cutoff folds, button re-raises again.


OK - here is where it gets tricky for me. I think that my original bet made sense, since I had many outs, one of which (the Q) could make my hand a loser to anyone with a K. I needed to bet to get those out. My raise was aimed at the cutoff, who limped for one bet, but I thought would fold when facing two bets, which he did. Now I didn't anticipate the button hitting it again, so now I'm a little stuck.


Am I drawing nearly dead to KQ? Or what?


Anyhow, I call. The turn is a blank, check, bet, call and the river is a blank so I muck and the world will never know. But the real question is, what do you do with a pocket pair that could make the stupid end of the straight? Was I too aggressive?


J

J,

With 1 limperin front of me and and solid player to act behind me, I actually raise here. IMO 8-8 does not play well multiway unless you hit your set, but It has a good chance heads up or 3 ways.


I think betting out on this flop is ok, but when you are raised by the button, what do you put him on? With 3 overcards and a draw to the low end str8, I think this is an asy fold. (I am curious who else would lay this hand down here.)


I think after you reraise and he caps it, you can be pertty sure your up aginst K-Q.


But to answer your questions I rarely draw to the low end of a str8 especially when essentially you have just 4 outs. I think your aggrssion on the flop was somewhat reasonable, if you think that he will lay his hand down, but again after he caps it I think I check fold the turn

Six ways there is very little chance your 88 is good, and there are way too many playable hands that aren't going to fold no matter what, like JT, JQ, 99, KQ, QT and hands that will not be folded by most players, like AQ, KJ, J9, J8, KT, etc. Check and maybe call one bet on the flop and pray for a 7, or a cheap show down. You don't have to try and win every pot, especially a small one like this.

Six way action BTF you have at best a crying call on the flop. For one bet I might take a card off

and hope for a Seven, but no way am I putting in three bets on the flop when I might be drawing dead or for half the pot. You very well may be up against 78.


Bruce

Fold on the flop. Only the 7's are good outs for you and those are already dead to KQ. An 8 is no good as it probably makes a straight for someone else. Another player could already have made 2 pair with JT, J9 or T9. With 6 players seeing the flop it is very likely someone has a J, T or 9.

the answer is maybe. you know that your 8s are toast by the reraise. if yer thinkin of goin farther, ya gotta think of what ya may be REPRESENTING. maybe a set of 9s. then figure if ya can get the guy to lay a hand down. i doubt if he has KQ. on a safe board like this chances are hed be waitin for the turn while letting the blinds in behind for more bets instead of knocking them out that quick. hed more likely try for head up on on the turn. id figure him on top pair, 2 pair or a set. so if the board pairs, it may help him too. personally, if i played this on this flop, id play as a set of 9s, and check raise the flop. THAT'S IF i decided to play the flop. 90%+ the time im foldin the flop. way too much to be beat by. and if ya got a solid player in, it can be even tougher. think of what hed be capping the flop with. other than the nuts.


just some thoughts


b

There is no question that if there is a showdown after the flop that I expect someone to show a better hand than the 88. But with two cards to come, the 88 can be a winner a decent number of times.


The thinking is that there are potentially many outs. 7 (x4) , Q (x4) or 8 (x2) - making a total of 10 outs and making it worthwile to continue playing. The issue is how many of those outs are dead and whether the possibility of KQ or a higher set makes it worthwile to play on. Folding is definitely an option worth considering, but there is some valid reasoning behind raising and getting rid of anyone with a K (like a K10) and ensuring that the Q stays live as an out.


If the button has KQ, then the pockets 8s are in big trouble. If the button has JT, AJ, 9T or any other of a myriad of hands, then the 88 is a powerful hand that has 10 outs - nearly a 40% chance of improving to a winning hand by the river.


I'm actually a bit surprised at how quickly everyone here is ready to muck these cards. Although that isn't necessarily a bad play, I think that there is a good argument for sticking around for a $120+ pot.


Of course, I'm willing to be wrong, which is the beauty of this forum -

Raise before the flop with one limper and being two away from the button.


After the flop, the way it is discussed, I would check and fold 100% of the time in this situation. None of the draws will give you the nuts. There are too many players with cards in your zone. This cannot be treated as a gut-shot straight, since you are more likely to be drawing dead in this situation in my opinion.


The only time I would draw to the ignorant end of the straight with a pocket pair is if it was a pair of fours or lower. This gives a legitimate shot at 8 outs to the straight, since many hands will have a 10 or higher in them to eliminate half of your outs, but may not have an 8,7, or 6.

"The thinking is that there are potentially many outs. 7 (x4) , Q (x4) or 8 (x2) - making a total of 10 outs and making it worthwile to continue playing. The issue is how many of those outs are dead and whether the possibility of KQ or a higher set makes it worthwile to play on."


There are two problems. You "invested" 4 bets on the flop to try and preserve a few outs, that you may or may not have, when the pot only had 6 or 7 small bets in it. The other problem is, while you may have as many as 10 outs (or as few as two runners), you don't know which ones are good, so even if you get there you are going to have trouble getting value out of your hand.


The best scenario for you would probably be against AQ (and a real maniac), but even then the guy has 9 outs, plus the leverage to move you off your hand if he misses.


I didn't run any simulations, but I think even if you know you are against J2o, and that all the other players will fold, you still don't have the implied odds to play the hand the way you did.

I'm folding the flop 100% of the time.


TRLS

YES! For crying out loud. 6-handed?! You bet you overplayed the hand. "Many outs?" Yikes. With 6 people taking the flop, you can forget a Q as an out (certainly as a "drawable" out), and obviously you don't really want to see an 8 either. This leaves a 7, which may or may not be good anyway, and which may only be good for half the pot. This is a clear fold after the first raise on the flop. Let's face it--you don't have the best hand, and you're certainly getting the worst of it drawing. PLUS, even when you DO manage to get lucky on the turn, there's always the river to come along and counterfeit your hand, or at least cripple it.


Save your chips. Wait for the smart end.


DT

If ur looking to win one big bet an hour, ur wasring a few hrs work on a useless hand. Check and fold is the only smart play here