A river checkraise

[Diplomat]

Decent live 10-20 game. I limp in MP after 2 limpers with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The button, a very loose player, raises. Both blinds and the limpers call, I call.

The flop is QJ9 rainbow. Checked to me and I bet. The button calls. The big blind, a very loose, weak player, also calls.

The turn is a 4. Weak player in the big blind checks, I bet, the button and the big blind call.

The river is an A. The big blind checks. I check.

Whatcha think of the river check?

-Diplomat

[chesspain]

The problem with this is I think there is too great of a chance of the button checking this through unless he has an ace. If this is true, it means that you may well get raised anyway if you bet, but you won't get any action if the button hasn't improved, especially with the BB calling station still hanging around. Consequently, I would bet and try to collect at least a crying call from the the button.

With respect to the check, my great-grandmother from the old country would have said "Feh." (That's Yiddish for "Meh").

[Noo Yawk]

Bet the river. The Ace either hit him hard or scared him. The only way you're getting any action is if it hit him hard.

[King_J]

I sure would have checked the flop, trying for a check-raise on the flop or turn depending on the action.

Why bet it out?

[SheridanCat]

I would bet out on the river. Since it seems likely these guys will call my bet, I think it's a bad thing if it gets checked down.

The button hasn't shown much strength, so I don't think you can count on him to bet it for you. If he has a weak ace, even if he's a bad player, I would expect him to check it. The only way he's going to bet, in my opinion, is if he was holding AQ or AJ and hit two pair. However, his betting patterns tell me he has something else and that I can expect a check behind.

And, these players don't feel like the types from whom you can induce a bluff.

I will only go for a river check raise if the players behind me have shown strength through the hand. I just don't like to leave bets on the table by trying to be tricky.

Regards,

T

[astroglide]

i don't like limping after 2 people in mp with T8s, especially with a LAG on the button. i don't like betting into a LAG after flopping the second nuts when it is very possible he'll raise everybody out.

on this one i would fold preflop, but if the dealer handed my cards back to me i would be looking to checkraise.

[Diplomat]

Hi Astro,

notice that the button is loose, but not necessarily agressive. Does this affect your answer?

How about the river checkraise?

-Diplomat

[astroglide]

loose or tight, people still bet the flop 98% of the time after raising preflop. with this info, i also dislike the river checkraise attempt, because his play looks like a terribly played pair or a pair involving a ten that he may not bet.

[Zele]

I think the river checkraise is a fine play, but I agree with astro that playing T8s against only two limpers when you don't even have the button is Big Trouble in Little China.

[elysium]

hi diplomat
glad to see you've dropped into a level where you can find good games. this is a good game for you. can you see how you can run plays without being forced into gut wrenching decisions? and how does it feel to have some expectation of getting in a check-raise on this horrifying board?

pre-flop, it's a borderline call that at the 10-20 isn't excessively risky. on the river, you misapply something you've read or someone told you about being able to check-raise when the A hits on the river, and overlook the the check-raise golden rule that you must be very certain that when you check, your opponent will bet. you also overlook the horrifying board.

i'm sure this thread will fill my mailbox with requests not to be so hard on diplomat, but my response is the same; i have told you all how hard it is to save diplomat money. now you see how hard it is to make diplomat money. someone has got to tell diplomat that there is an inanimated 500 pound rubber baby gorilla sitting on the table, with his hand in diplomat's pocket. why must diplomat take hold of the gorilla's forearm, shake the grasping cells in his rubbery hand nerve to life, and then slap enough positional memory tingle into the gorilla's fingers so that the hand can be fitted into pocket? the gorilla is harmlessly dormant and rubber baby, i agee. but if you search around long enough, you will give the right spot on his wrist a pressure point and awaken reflexive energy. this will give the gorilla the money grabbing wherewithal and hand power to open and close on another twenty, maybe forty dollars of bankroll, and then lifting as it were, like a self-inflicted money crane, up and out of your own pocket?

if the table isn't very aggressive, when a 500 pound gorilla lands out of the deck, and the board horrifys, what player see, player do. bet diplomat, bet. diplomat, you must bet. even when inanimated and not lively enough to scare even a call, board horror deadens the betting cells in your opponents' betting instict, even if the horror seems dormant to you, like a 500 pound rubber play gorilla. the lost bets come when you grab the gorilla's wrist and shake it like that, followed by an in your pocket check-raising pressure point. with his body numb, you have artificially shaken enough positional memory into the gorilla's retracted comatose hand so that by sixth-sense, when you slap his hand, the gorilla holds his fingers firmly together, enableing a nimble entry into your pocket. once in, if you apply pressure on the autonomic grasping point, and give the presuggestive cue to squeeze, gorilla takes money. that he's inanimated and rubbery is of no concern to you. you find his open and close response anyway.

bet diplomat bet. diplomat you must bet.

when the gorilla jumps out of deck, even a 500 pound rubber baby one, don't go for a reanimation of his hand. he has a very dangerous hand, void of vigor though it may be. you can still find purchase for an autonomic pressure point. once closed, the hand formidable. you will find it very difficult to remove your money from the comatose gorilla's rubbery embrace.

bet diplomat bet. diplomat you must bet.

[risen]

Check raising the flop is going to kill your action. You may as well turn over your cards and see if they still want to play with you. I think the better course of action is to play it straight all the way through, looking for overcalls from hopeless hands and using your psychoflexitive powers to will one of the limpers behind you into trap raising the field on the turn.

[samdash]

I like this play because it is probably the best plan of getting at least 1 bet from each player on the river. The first player will call the button "bluff snapping" and then pow. I think if you bet out on the river you will likely get 0, 1, or 2 bets but checking will likely get you 2, 3 or 4.

[astroglide]

Check raising the flop is going to kill your action. You may as well turn over your cards and see if they still want to play with you.

there is a QUEEN, a JACK, and a NINE out there in a RAISED POT. many people will have a piece of it, and most will (at least) call.

[Rushmore]

It looks to me as if this guy has a hand that he intends to call down with.

I think checking the river is a big mistake. I don't care how loose he is, there are a fair number of hands he will check behind you that he would have paid you off with.

You're risking a probable two big bets to earn a probable one bet, as one or the other will probably not pay off the raise.

Bird in the hand, all of that.

[risen]

Sorry, I was speaking more of the turn action, they're all going to call 1 more on the flop of course, but when that blank comes on the turn, most if not all of them are ghost without better than a pair.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]

You're risking a probable two big bets to earn a probable one bet, as one or the other will probably not pay off the raise.

Bird in the hand, all of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the checkraise is successful, it's more than 1 bet. It's usually 3, sometimes 4.

-Diplomat

[King_J]

[ QUOTE ]
Check raising the flop is going to kill your action. You may as well turn over your cards and see if they still want to play with you. I think the better course of action is to play it straight all the way through, looking for overcalls from hopeless hands and using your psychoflexitive powers to will one of the limpers behind you into trap raising the field on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just ridiciolus (spelling?)
So if I tell everyone I have a straight when I c/r here I can c/r here everytime I miss, and expect everyone to fold unless they have odds to outdraw my straight??

Edit: didnt see your correction. Ignore this ´message if you have changed your mind

[Ian J]

I love it. The button is going to bet a heckofa lot of the time and you'll be trapping multiple people for 2 bets.

[elindauer]

Pretty bad. The problem is that there's no particular reason to think the button will bet. If he'd shown strength on an earlier round, than you might be able to put him on a hand that will bet this river. As it is though, the big blind might be looking to check-raise with 2 pair, while the button may be looking for a cheap showdown. Lots of missed big bets.


Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]

If the checkraise is successful, it's more than 1 bet. It's usually 3, sometimes 4.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't correct. If you just bet, you get 2 anyways most times. The check-raise is risking those 2 that you would have picked up by betting, in an attempt to win an extra one or two.


Good luck.
Eric