back to back smacks, A A & J J: who would have played differently?

[Desdia72]

#1. full table SNG, blinds at 15/30 with 45 already in the pot from SB and BB. i [1350 in chips] have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and raise to 90. everybody folds to the big stack [2070 in chips]who calls, as well as the SB. the flop comes 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif3c. not looking to slowplay, i bet 240 on the flop, the big stack calls, and the SB folds. the turn comes a J /images/graemlins/heart.gif. i go all-in the rest of my chips and the big stack calls. he show a 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (three of a kind) and my Aces are shot when the river hits a 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. anybody would have played this differently, say a bigger raise preflop?

#2. in the second SNG, i'm dealt J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif with 1390 in chips, blinds 50/100, still a full table at this point. with 150 in the pot (blinds) and one limper, the big stack [3810](who had been getting lucky with alot of hands raises to 200. i reraise to 500, the blinds & the limper fold and the big stack calls the remaining 300. the flop comes 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif rainbow. i go all-in the rest of my chips [890] and the big stack calls and shows and Ace and a 5 (bottom pair). and Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif comes on the turn and a 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the river and i'm out in back to back smacks. who would have played this hand differently?

[Irishboy]

both look good to me.

hang in there

[SirFWALGMan]

I would probably play it too.. I just went all in pre-flop with Rockets, and lost to a straight. Last time I had Rockets I lost to 3's, so I kinda hate them, but still would play them strong.

[TJD]

Please do not be insulted by a relative beginner in SnG's replying but I am happy to comment and be accused of bad advice 'cos then we all learn from my mistake.

Hand 1 - You would have been happy to be all in against 1 opponent pre flop, I presume, but it did not happen.

When the flop comes, what is your plan? If one of your opponents has a 4 or 2 3's you are in trouble. The pot is 300 and you underbet it slightly. Did you think what you were going to do on the turn if called? You pushed on the turn when a J came, now if one of them had JJ you have another problem. There is no way I am getting away from this hand despite the pair on the flop but with a flush draw and a str8 draw possible I would just push on the flop to try and discourage someone making a "bad" call and drawing out on me. It's too early to be mucking about; I would just try to trouser the T300 and move on to the next hand still intact. Like you I would bust out, but in a different way /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hand 2 - I would most certainly NOT play it your way. What are you going to do if the big stack RR your 500 all in? You are almost forced to call. For me this is either RR all in or fold. You do not say how many players are left or what their stack sizes are but for me I think that is unlikely to matter unless there are just 3 of us left and I am therefore the short stack. In that specific case I RR all in; in all others I fold in a heartbeat.

I would welcome comments here.

Trevor

[Phill S]

i think your raise with the bullets was too weak. think stack % and not pot % and youll see why. 3BB can and does get called by all sorts of junk.

i think you played it fundamentally wrong on the flop though. id have looked to c\heck raise or just raised a hell of a lot more. id have struggled to get away from aces here, but id have raised more pre and probably not seen a flop. there is no easy answer.

nothing wrong with the hooks in my opinion tho. id still be rejoicing when i lose it. you made the best play available and lost, it happens, thats why non of us have fingernails.

my only point on that hand tho, is he didnt have bottom pair, but other than that its all good.

[Jason Strasser]

Hand one: fine.

Hand two: I push preflop. You have a little folding equity on this hand by pushing. Raising to 500, this loose big stack will call regardless. You'd probably end up losing, but I think pushing PF is the best play, rather than pot committing yourself with a hand that can be tricky to play with overcards on the flop.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand one: fine.

Hand two: I push preflop. You have a little folding equity on this hand by pushing. Raising to 500, this loose big stack will call regardless. You'd probably end up losing, but I think pushing PF is the best play, rather than pot committing yourself with a hand that can be tricky to play with overcards on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the reason i pushed all-in on the flop with the Jacks. with the 5 on the flop, that gave him bottom pair with the 5 in his hand with no overcards on the flop. i actually think he made a bad call of my all-in with his hand at that point unless he had already flopped two pair or trip 10s, 5s, or 3s. however, he was playing loose and the board kept rewarding him at the right time. he feel he does'nt connect on a hand like that over the long run. any of the more experienced SNG players can discuss further whether that hand and play has positive + EV. i'm still trying to grasp this concept. did the guy, in actuality, make a good call that would be profitably in the long run with that hand?

with the rockets, you're looking at early stage small blinds. with 45 in the pot in EP, i could risk not getting any calls by raising an extra 30 to 120 preflop. now, i'm not disputing raising more, my thinking was just on getting as many callers as i could while the blinds was still low. i've seen many a people raise strongly with this hand preflop when the blinds are low and get no callers. *then they flash their hand, which at this point does'nt matter, because now everybody knows they made good laydowns by not giving you any play*. you walked away with 30 or 45 in blind money. A A, although the best starting hand in holdem, can be a tricky holding early in a SNG when the blinds are low. i've lost three big hands in SNGs playing these (got rivered twice and three of kind on the flop), all of which, my girlfriend /images/graemlins/grin.gif got to see (remember the ALL-IN WITH 9 9 thread when down to three players as the shortstack?)the best hand get creamed.

[2planka]

Hand 1: I agree that the 3x BB raise was too small. I probably overbet here since it's early. May as well advertise that I have a monster here. If anyone's paying attention perhaps they'll think twice about calling my big raise later on. If someone pops me back I push, if someone calls I probably push on the flop unless it's really scary (one suited or a big pair on board). Still, I think you played it fine. Just make a bigger raise preflop.

Hand 2: Think you have to push it here pf. Your pot size bet only serves to commit you to the pot and it's not scaring away the big stack (he's probably correct to call the extra 300 provided he has any kind of hand - A5 is not a hand I'd be playing here, though).

Your opponents lucked out in each of these hands, but I think you gave them the right price to do so. Nothing wrong with dragging a few small pots.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
i think your raise with the bullets was too weak. think stack % and not pot % and youll see why. 3BB can and does get called by all sorts of junk.


[/ QUOTE ]

But that's a good thing, right? I'd be rather angry if I didn't extra more than the blinds with AA. People joining me on the flop with junk is just what I want.

Edit: That should be "people paying to join me on the flop...", natch.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think your raise with the bullets was too weak. think stack % and not pot % and youll see why. 3BB can and does get called by all sorts of junk.


[/ QUOTE ]

But that's a good thing, right? I'd be rather angry if I didn't extra more than the blinds with AA. People joining me on the flop with junk is just what I want.

Edit: That should be "people paying to join me on the flop...", natch.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what i was thinking. just did'nt work out for me.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Please do not be insulted by a relative beginner in SnG's replying but I am happy to comment and be accused of bad advice 'cos then we all learn from my mistake.

Hand 1 - You would have been happy to be all in against 1 opponent pre flop, I presume, but it did not happen.

When the flop comes, what is your plan? If one of your opponents has a 4 or 2 3's you are in trouble. The pot is 300 and you underbet it slightly. Did you think what you were going to do on the turn if called? You pushed on the turn when a J came, now if one of them had JJ you have another problem. There is no way I am getting away from this hand despite the pair on the flop but with a flush draw and a str8 draw possible I would just push on the flop to try and discourage someone making a "bad" call and drawing out on me. It's too early to be mucking about; I would just try to trouser the T300 and move on to the next hand still intact. Like you I would bust out, but in a different way /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hand 2 - I would most certainly NOT play it your way. What are you going to do if the big stack RR your 500 all in? You are almost forced to call. For me this is either RR all in or fold. You do not say how many players are left or what their stack sizes are but for me I think that is unlikely to matter unless there are just 3 of us left and I am therefore the short stack. In that specific case I RR all in; in all others I fold in a heartbeat.

I would welcome comments here.

Trevor

[/ QUOTE ]

in the case of the Aces, underbetting the pot was a non-issue; i was already beat. however, if i was'nt beat at this point, i see the slight underbet as advertising a powerful hand but probably also enough to get someone else with a good hand (like K K-J J) to call, further maximizing what i could win with the Aces.

*to the more experienced SNG players, is this the wrong kind of thinking?*

[Jason Strasser]

Your opponent in hand two obviously made a poor call on the flop. However, you could've made him make an even worse move preflop. (calling your all in)

Calling all in preflop, getting 1190:1940...

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Jh 1204514 70.34 501176 29.27 6614 0.39 0.705
Ac 5d 501176 29.27 1204514 70.34 6614 0.39 0.295

Or calling the all in on the flop, getting 890:2140 with virtually the same odds:

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 3s 5c Th
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Jh 774 78.18 216 21.82 0 0.00 0.782
Ac 5d 216 21.82 774 78.18 0 0.00 0.218

PLUS the folding equity, which you don't have by making a small raise preflop. Math could be off slightly, the principals are not.

[Jason Strasser]

With aces on the flop, underbetting is really never a good idea unless you have a set. Anything less than a pot bet allows people to draw.

However, when you get advice telling you to bet MORE with AA preflop, and bet EVEN more with JJ, because of reasons X, Y, and Z, ignore it. On the 10/15 levels I have a standard raise of 55. On the 15/30 levels I have a standard raise of 95. On the 20/40 levels I make it 125 to go. on the 25/50 levels I make it 150 to go. On the 50/100 levels I make it 275 to go. On the 100/200 levels (if Im not all-in or fold mode, which is unusual), its 550 to go. The reason my bets slightly decline in proportion to the BB is because generally it takes less to steal blinds (in proportion to BB size) as the blind levels increase.

If you bet more preflop with different hands, you allow your opponent to get a huge advantage. I constantly see huge preflop bets, and I constantly see these people hold 88-JJ, and AQ-AJ. Don't do this.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
However, when you get advice telling you to bet MORE with AA preflop, and bet EVEN more with JJ, because of reasons X, Y, and Z, ignore it. On the 10/15 levels I have a standard raise of 55. On the 15/30 levels I have a standard raise of 95. On the 20/40 levels I make it 125 to go. on the 25/50 levels I make it 150 to go. On the 50/100 levels I make it 275 to go. On the 100/200 levels (if Im not all-in or fold mode, which is unusual), its 550 to go. The reason my bets slightly decline in proportion to the BB is because generally it takes less to steal blinds (in proportion to BB size) as the blind levels increase.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a standard raise, with AA i will do whatever it will take to get 2 at most people to see the flop with me, I guess at 10-15 I would raise between 50-100 on party with a variety of hands, but no discernible patterns (imo anyways). The point about patterns is very important, and should be noted.

As to JJ I've been experimenting with playing this weaker recently, with some interesting results, especially against calling stations. I certainly would not advise playing it harder than I would play AA.

Also i guess the people you play against pay more attention to the play than they do down here (at least some of them).

Regards ML

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
in the case of the Aces, underbetting the pot was a non-issue; i was already beat. however, if i was'nt beat at this point, i see the slight underbet as advertising a powerful hand but probably also enough to get someone else with a good hand (like K K-J J) to call, further maximizing what i could win with the Aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong i think you played the aces fine, but your reason here is wrong in my opinion, if you are against JJ-KK with this flop all the money is going in regardless of what you bet, so if he has this you are getting his stack 90% of the time.

One question, when he called your bet (on the flop), what did you think he had, I would have lost a lot here too, but with him just calling preflop I would at least consider him having a 4, just a point, something to look for in future. I'm not saying I could fold the aces though unless he becomes the aggressor and probably not then either. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Regards ML