I want to correct a general misconception here.... [Archive]

Syntax

06-27-2004, 08:51 PM

Over the weekend I have played about 30 hours between Empire Poker, PokerStars, and Ultimate Bet. I played some 1/2 & 2/4 LHE, and .5/1 NL HE at each site. I also played a couple $10-$30 SNG's.

Everyone seems to think that the Party skins are just loaded with fish and the other sites are much tougher games.

At the limits I mentioned, I don't think that statement could be further from the truth, and I doubt that many of the people making those statements have played on all these sites recently.

The rake at Party is the highest of all the sites at those levels. At UB you can pretty much play rake free with thier almost unlimitited amount of bonus dollar offers. The tourney structure at Stars offers the best opportunity to turn a good profit for any solid tournament player.

I really don't understand why it seems to be a consensus here that the easist and best games are at Party, thats just not the reality of it.

Alobar

06-27-2004, 08:54 PM

I can't think of an easier game to beat than the party 2/4 LHE. I dont even waste my time clearing bonuses at UB because it takes forever and I make more money playing at party with out a bonus and their high rake.

Syntax

06-27-2004, 09:01 PM

How do suggest that clearing the bonus dollars at UB takes forever? Maybe they've changed something since your last visit, but I played all afternoon on a 1/2 table and a .5/1 NL table and averaged about $8 hour total in bonus dollars clearing. Plus those points are worth tournament entries like Aruba satellelites or even a new 2+2 book. Thats great equity and at a lower rake. The games are not any tougher then the ones at Party.

Alobar

06-27-2004, 09:13 PM

just look at the avg pot size for a 1/2 or 2/4 game at party, then compare it to one at stars. At party there are several tables over 10BB/pot, at the other sites its not even close to that.

Syntax

06-27-2004, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
just look at the avg pot size for a 1/2 or 2/4 game at party, then compare it to one at stars. At party there are several tables over 10BB/pot, at the other sites its not even close to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never agree with the lobby numbers at Party but I will entertain your challenge:

http://www.bytestreamstudios.com/rounders/ub.jpg

http://www.bytestreamstudios.com/rounders/empire.jpg

There really isnt that much of a differnce as you can plainly see. Of course there are a lot more games going at empire, but they arent "better".

Also theres a big differnce in the software. Ive neve had a problem with the Party interface before, but after playing about 4 hours on UB and then jumping onto an Empire table, I felt like I was playing with a kids toy. The graphics are so flat and weak compared to the 3D stuff at UB. UB is not perfect by any means, but anyone thats played both will probably get what Im saying.

Mac237

06-27-2004, 09:56 PM

it looks like you're hiding the full tables at empire

Jimbo

06-27-2004, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it looks like you're hiding the full tables at empire

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he is! How else could he make his point?

Jimbo

JTrout

06-27-2004, 10:11 PM

Haven't I read on here that Party counts the pot differently than other sites?
Counts uncalled bets as part of the pot or something?

Syntax

06-27-2004, 10:16 PM

No, I didnt even pay attention, I always have that box checked. Why would I care about full tables? Its hard enough to find and empty seat when theres "supposed" to be only 8 or 9 players seated. Heres another screen shot with all tables. Once again, not much different. If you don't believe me, open up the sites and check for yourself!!

http://www.bytestreamstudios.com/rounders/empire2.jpg

MicroBob

06-27-2004, 10:18 PM

yes...i noticed the tables were hidden on his empire shot as well.

i'm ACTUALLY ON both sides of this issue i think.

i agree with syntax that the play at UB and stars is not 'unbelieveably tight' when compared to party.
i'm also running into more and more rocks at party and slightly fewer super-fishies (while i've also run into the occasional super-fish at the other sites).

but i also agree that party's games are still the fishiest.....just not by such a great margin anymore.

with the bonus-money available at other sites i think a decent 1/2 to 3/6 player might be able to squeak out better profits by bonus-chasing a little bit WHILE keeping party as their main base.
especially so when one considers the lousy rake-structure at party.

at least, that's been my strategy lately.

also....since no one has said it yet....party counts the last uncalled bet into their pot-avg's whereas most sites don't.

for limit 2/4, i would suggest that the avg party pot size should be lowered by $1 to more accurately compare to other sites.

also....most people have reported that the SF% on the p-tracker from party play is not really that much higher. around 34-38% on most of their 1/2 to 3/6 tables i think

again, i do think that party's tables are fishier than the others....but not so much so that it is worth ignoring all the bonuses being offered elsewhere.

right now, i have the best of both worlds....i'm finishing off the hands for a bonus AND i'm doing it at party.
but in a couple-hunderd more hands i'll be done with party for now and off to absolute or UB or p-room where i have stored up a combined $1000 of virtually rake-free play.

gabyyyyy

06-27-2004, 10:20 PM

Why can't you idiots ever answer the question without insulting or nitpicking the orginal posters comments?

Syntax

06-27-2004, 10:21 PM

Probably. When you make a bet and it doesnt get called, Party shoots out that "Congraulations" and pushes you the pot and counts the uncalled bet in the pot size. This is quite amusing in NL games. I don't know how many "$30" pots I won, but my stack seems to only increase by like $5.

MicroBob

06-27-2004, 10:41 PM

turn off that idiotic 'congratulations' salute.

i posted about a month ago about a party NL-25 table with an avg pot-size of $120.

some maniac had built a $200 stack and would frequently push all-in post-flop to take the pot.

the pot might be $3....his opponent has a stack of only $10 (and thus can only call up to $10 anyway)....but when his opponent folds it is credited as a $200 pot.

sadly, i haven't seen that idiot since that weekend. and i've looked for him quite a lot. i really miss him.

Senor Choppy

06-27-2004, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why can't you idiots ever answer the question without insulting

[/ QUOTE ]

A well thought out post, as always.

Dingo Puppet

06-28-2004, 02:00 AM

I won't play party empire because of the sky high rakes. Anyone who supports them by playing there is a fool. Everyone knows that. You are getting fleeced if you play there. There's ten gazillion poker sites online now, and every single one has much much lower rakes than Party empire.

I use to play party, but when I realized I was now going to have to pay 700 extra per month in rakes than I use to, I told them to take a flying f"ck off their party poker million cruise ship. They replied and said it wasn't much of an increase to a majority of the players, and that they would offer new promotions that the rake increases would pay for. BS, I'm not paying them an extra 8400 a year so they can offer a 1500 player free roll I can enter. I'm not paying them 8400 bucks extra per year, so maybe I can play 4 tables at a time to try to win a few bucks from Lucy Jones. If they are going to penalize those who play the most because it "doesn't affect the majority that much", f'ck them!

f'ck them forever. I like many other sites much much better now. I don't miss playing there for one second. I wouldn't even consider playing there again until they lower the rakes to what is the industry standard.

F'ck them, good riddance.

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 02:32 AM

There is no 'general' misconception here.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to think that the Party skins are just loaded with fish and the other sites are much tougher games.

[/ QUOTE ]
We don't think.. we know.

[ QUOTE ]
At the limits I mentioned, I don't think that statement could be further from the truth, and I doubt that many of the people making those statements have played on all these sites recently.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I haven't played poker in over a year.. only occassionally helped a friend in need of props when I've had free time to spare. But, I do participate in ongoing discussion sessions with a number of pros and semi-pros (including the mythical ones hitting 7-10K a month on Party).. the only thing untruthful is your suggestion that generally speaking, PS and UB games are as soft as Party's.

[ QUOTE ]
The rake at Party is the highest of all the sites at those levels.

[/ QUOTE ]
As a whole, 'we' do not have 'general' misconceptions. Is the misconception of Party having the highest rake at those levels specific or deliberate on your part?

Ub's 2/4 and 3/6 games are raked at $0.25 increments (for every $5), whereas Party rakes $1 at $20, and $0.50 at every $10 thereafter. Ub's games are the highest raked. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Ub has the highest rake on the internet because of affiliates. Boycott Ub! /sarcasm

[ QUOTE ]
At UB you can pretty much play rake free with thier almost unlimitited amount of bonus dollar offers.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is kinda true.. but I've already posted elsewhere about how much a deposit bonus + poor game is worth compared to a reasonable rake rebate + good game. Really.. to go to the trouble of moving 100 to 200 BB's to one of those sites, just to move it back for a net gain of a few BB's is just too much trouble for most pros. And many of the recently-acquired-pro-status-by-default-because-of-too-many-fish-on-Party type of semi-pros will suffer a net negative gain for their bonus clearing troubles. Really, I still poke fun at a couple of the ones I know personally that have suffered a net negative gain (multiple times each) for their troubles of opening an account and trying to take advantage of a PS or UB bonus offer.

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand why it seems to be a consensus here that the easist and best games are at Party, thats just not the reality of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reality of it: you are in denial.

If you really have a bone to pick with Party.. that's cool. Personally, I love Ub's GUI and can't stand Party's. But understand that you are not doing these sites any favors posting here, to a hardcore audience. Instead, you should sell your fallicious arguments to beginners to send them to those sites.. and the hardcore junkies here will follow. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I won't play party empire because of the sky high rakes. Anyone who supports them by playing there is a fool. I wouldn't even consider playing there again until they lower the rakes to what is the industry standard.

F'ck them, good riddance.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really like the industry standard rates at Ub. Maybe I'll open my own real money account there and play starting tomorrow. Oh geez what am I thinking? I'll just call my friend up again and play on his Ub prop account, rake free! You see? A propped site lowers the industry standard rake.. if you're special, sometimes even to zero!

Ralph Wiggum

06-28-2004, 02:37 AM

Maybe all the fish will go to Stars in the fall w/ the ridiculous amount of free promotion it'll get on ESPN showing the WSOP (like 20% of the players wearing Stars' gear). 4 of 9 finalist also have Stars' gear, and the final 2 do also.

blackaces13

06-28-2004, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Counts uncalled bets as part of the pot or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to unequivically state then Party does NOT count uncalled bets as part of the pot. The reason why I know this is from working off bonuses at Party where I'm actually rooting for a rake, yet if the pot is 4.50 and someone bets $1 and doesn't get called it is NOT a raked hand. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary I'd love to see/hear it.

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 02:56 AM

To best of my knowledge, Party's 'system', if you can believe that an organization as incoherent as Party may have a defined system.. Yikes! How can I refer to them as an organization?! Anyways.. back on topic.

Many many moons ago, Party used to collect rake on all uncalled bets, and also include uncalled bets in reporting pot averages. Only a few moons ago, they began to calculate rake only on called bets, but still added uncalled bets to reporting of average pot size. They really should change this.

gabyyyyy

06-28-2004, 03:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe all the fish will go to Stars in the fall w/ the ridiculous amount of free promotion it'll get on ESPN showing the WSOP (like 20% of the players wearing Stars' gear). 4 of 9 finalist also have Stars' gear, and the final 2 do also.

[/ QUOTE ]

UH.. Wrong! Espn will not be showing any online poker related apparel. It will all be edited out.

MicroBob

06-28-2004, 03:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Only a few moons ago, they began to calculate rake only on called bets, but still added uncalled bets to reporting of average pot size. They really should change this.

[/ QUOTE ]

correct.
and agreed.

they don't rake extra for the uncalled bets.....but it still goes up on the board.
read my previous post about playing on a NL-25 table with a pot-avg of $120 even though he was usually taking in $3 (or less) at a shot.

Senor Choppy

06-28-2004, 04:43 AM

Last year this wasn't the case. They didn't allow poker logos at the final table but they were visible for earlier days IIRC.

Do you have any legitimate source for this or is this yet another thing you're just pulling out of your ass? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

tyfromm

06-28-2004, 05:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I won't play party empire because of the sky high rakes. Anyone who supports them by playing there is a fool. Everyone knows that. You are getting fleeced if you play there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear, hear.

I also won't pay taxes to the IRS. There rates are too high, they are fleecing us. I will not support their fascist system. Anyone who does is a fool. So instead I live in a box on the street and get tax free gifts from passers by. Ha ha, I win! I beat the nasty tax system!

Thythe

06-28-2004, 08:45 AM

acecrack,

I'm not sure, but I think it's a double standard. They count it in the average pot size, but don't when calculating rake. This is because at at $4.50 facing a $20 bet it's easy for them to see this as a $24.50 pot, but they don't physically take rake, so they don't count it as a raked hand. Interesting system they have over there.

Dingo Puppet

06-28-2004, 09:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I won't play party empire because of the sky high rakes. Anyone who supports them by playing there is a fool. I wouldn't even consider playing there again until they lower the rakes to what is the industry standard.

F'ck them, good riddance.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really like the industry standard rates at Ub. Maybe I'll open my own real money account there and play starting tomorrow. Oh geez what am I thinking? I'll just call my friend up again and play on his Ub prop account, rake free! You see? A propped site lowers the industry standard rake.. if you're special, sometimes even to zero!

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus, you edited your reply? Were you intentionally trying to make it even more nonsensical?

Dingo Puppet

06-28-2004, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I won't play party empire because of the sky high rakes. Anyone who supports them by playing there is a fool. Everyone knows that. You are getting fleeced if you play there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear, hear.

I also won't pay taxes to the IRS. There rates are too high, they are fleecing us. I will not support their fascist system. Anyone who does is a fool. So instead I live in a box on the street and get tax free gifts from passers by. Ha ha, I win! I beat the nasty tax system!

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, if you guys are going to be drinking, lock up your keyboards and don't post! Friends don't let friends post drunk!!!

UTGunner

06-28-2004, 09:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I won't play party empire because of the sky high rakes. Anyone who supports them by playing there is a fool. Everyone knows that. You are getting fleeced if you play there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear, hear.

I also won't pay taxes to the IRS. There rates are too high, they are fleecing us. I will not support their fascist system. Anyone who does is a fool. So instead I live in a box on the street and get tax free gifts from passers by. Ha ha, I win! I beat the nasty tax system!

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, if you guys are going to be drinking, lock up your keyboards and don't post! Friends don't let friends post drunk!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, he made a very good point.

You seem to be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Does it make sense to give up a ton of income generated at Party tables just to deny them the rake that they will collect at the same time?

If you think it makes sense, you may be the one who ends up living in a box.

MS Sunshine

06-28-2004, 09:26 AM

"Many many moons ago, Party used to collect rake on all uncalled bets..."

To the best of my knowledge, this is incorrect.

MS Sunshine

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 09:32 AM

Apologies for overstating Ub's rake collection.
Still bigger than Party's, but less than my erroneous report.

OTOH, they may collect on a system similar to Paradise where the rake taken out on a previous betting round is deducted from the pot for future rake calculation. Which is NOT what Party does, so in the end it may not be much of a difference at all!

Hm.. now that I think about it some more.. the exact system of rake collection, and MUCH MUCH superior software.. I kinda like the Ub deal way more!

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 09:37 AM

I could be wrong... but I could almost swear back before the site took off, and I actually played there occassionally, this is what they did. I vaguely recall joking with a friend of mine that unlike Paradise, my bluff frequency on the river had to be recalculated to consider the bluff tax Party imposed.

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Were you intentionally trying to make it even more nonsensical?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wanted to stay on topic.. nonsensical seemed to be the OP's topic.

MS Sunshine

06-28-2004, 09:40 AM

"I could be wrong... "

I believe you are thinking of TruePoker, not Party.

MS Sunshine

Alobar

06-28-2004, 11:32 AM

try organizing the tables by pot size and it will become even clearer how much higher partys pot sizes are. Also if you arnt playing at a table just because its currently full, I think I see your problem. You need to practice some table selection. they have waiting lists for a reason

tiltboy

06-28-2004, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Over the weekend I have played about 30 hours between Empire Poker, PokerStars, and Ultimate Bet. I played some 1/2 & 2/4 LHE, and .5/1 NL HE at each site. I also played a couple $10-$30 SNG's.

Everyone seems to think that the Party skins are just loaded with fish and the other sites are much tougher games.

At the limits I mentioned, I don't think that statement could be further from the truth, and I doubt that many of the people making those statements have played on all these sites recently.

The rake at Party is the highest of all the sites at those levels. At UB you can pretty much play rake free with thier almost unlimitited amount of bonus dollar offers. The tourney structure at Stars offers the best opportunity to turn a good profit for any solid tournament player.

I really don't understand why it seems to be a consensus here that the easist and best games are at Party, thats just not the reality of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is obvious: small sample size.

Syntax

06-28-2004, 11:49 AM

How come in your entire defensive argument you ignored the lobby numbers in my post. Those were concrete facts that support my opinon. You support your position by saying you haven't even played poker in a year! WTF?.

Why does every think the UB bonus's are so hard to clear? Like I stated earlier, I clear about $40 in just under 4 hours yesterday at .5/1 NL and 1/2 LH. And not only am I clearing the dollars at about $8 hour, I am earning the UB points for even more equity. UB gives points for raked hands and for time at the tables each month.

For example, lets say I played 4 hours yesterday and I play 4 hours today, and earned 750 points. I would clear $75 in bonus and I would have enough points to enter a satellite for an Aruba Tournament Entry Chip.

Ok, so not that I sound like a complete effing shill, I am not. I just seem to be the only one here to realize that other sites are offering a lot better incentives to play then the Party sites. Then again, maybe Im not the only one, and thats why the sites have become much much softer then you seem to recall.

Syntax

06-28-2004, 11:54 AM

What problem? I don't have a problem at any site. It should also be amazingly clear to you that Party calculates uncalled bets in thier pot size. Also the good tables come and go very quicky at Party. At UB or stars, when theres a super fish playing, they tend to stay at the same table the whole time because there arent as many options.

Wayne

06-28-2004, 12:36 PM

Syntax,

Can you clear up this for me?

According to you:
- Party has worse graphics and itnerface
- Party not any fishier than UB
- Party doesn't reward their "loyal" players
- Party has the highest rake
- Party tourney structure sucks

<font color="red"> If Party is so bad, why do you continue to play there? </font>

You have a choice to play at whatever site you want to. Yet you continue to play at Party (Empire).

[ QUOTE ]
Over the weekend I have played about 30 hours between Empire Poker, PokerStars, and Ultimate Bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Syntax, I believe you are trying to convince 2+2'ers to leave Party so you can enjoy softer games. Why else would you play at a site you apparently hate?

If you really hate Party, play at the sites you like.

Alobar

06-28-2004, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What problem? I don't have a problem at any site. It should also be amazingly clear to you that Party calculates uncalled bets in thier pot size. Also the good tables come and go very quicky at Party. At UB or stars, when theres a super fish playing, they tend to stay at the same table the whole time because there arent as many options.

[/ QUOTE ]

what problem? you're complaining that party sucks, that seems like you have a problem to me. And arguing that the fish cant leave a table at UB or stars cuz there is no where else to go, really just adds to my point that party is better. more options = better. Yes we know party adds the last uncalled bet to the pot size, even without it party would still have a much higher pot avg.

I don't clear bonuses on UB because it takes forever. Many hands end up not being raked because the tables are so tight, there arnt many tables to choose from so if you want to clear your bonuses you end up having to play at a crappy table, and in my experience no way do would I clear $8/hr in bonuses.

Syntax

06-28-2004, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Syntax, I believe you are trying to convince 2+2'ers to leave Party so you can enjoy softer games. Why else would you play at a site you apparently hate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sorry, I generally try not to make deliberate fun of people on this board, but this is probably the stupidest thing I've read all day. Yeah, I think a bunch of 2+2 players are going to soften up the games. Did you even think that out before saying it?

NoChance

06-28-2004, 01:38 PM

Why post screenshots? Why not use Poker Tracker stats to prove/disprove your point? Poker Tracker is not biased and computes the stats the same way for each of these sites.

Now, I don't bother taking the time to request UB hand histories because it's a pain in arse, but I do request them for both Empire/Party and Stars. Here is what I find:

ASF @ Stars ($1/$2): 29.8%
ASF @ Empire/Party ($1/$2): 36.0%

I am not at home but those numbers stick out to me because I have compared the sites. I don't have exact pot sizes for the two sites but the difference was not as great. The sites were about $1 in difference with Party/Empire being slightly larger.

If anyone keeps these stats on all 3 sites, simply post the numers here. That way there can't be an argument.

Wayne

06-28-2004, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Im sorry, I generally try not to make deliberate fun of people on this board, but this is probably the stupidest thing I've read all day. Yeah, I think a bunch of 2+2 players are going to soften up the games. Did you even think that out before saying it?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">Why do you continue to play at Party (Empire) when you believe there are better places to play? </font>

You are not disclosing the full truth.

Syntax

06-28-2004, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you continue to play at Party (Empire) when you believe there are better places to play?

You are not disclosing the full truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play anywhere exlusively. Sometimes I get in the mood for a three table sng. While playing, I'll usually sit at a NL ring game at the same time.

Every once in a while Party gives everyone a reload bonus, so I'll take advantage of that.

Sometimes, even though its not my favorite software, I just want a change of scenery.

I never said the games were bad at Party or that they werent the best. IMO they are just not SO MUCH better then anywhere else.

citanul

06-28-2004, 02:55 PM

His implication, which you somehow amazingly missed, was that:

a) you play at party
b) 2+2ers make games tough, not soft

a+b=> you want 2+2ers to leave party because then the party games you play would be softer.

The original poster's comments don't take into account that those 2+2ers would have to go somewhere, and since you play everywhere, your net game softness encountered would likely not change much.

As for the lobby numbers, I believe that things like the poker tracker stats are much more important, they being actual data.

The original person who said you were hiding hte full tables was pointing out you not only had all full tables hidden, but your original screenshot was 90% shorthanded tables, not full ring tables.

Carry on with the lunacy,

citanul

Syntax

06-28-2004, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a+b=> you want 2+2ers to leave party because then the party games you play would be softer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a break! This is an even dumber comment then the fist one. Theres 10k+ live players at that site at any time. I probably run into very few if any 2+2 players that can beat the games at the limits I play when I play at Party.

The screenshot was unitentional, I always have that box checked and it just so happened there were only 5 or 6 open tables when I opened the software and snapped the shot. The simple fact of the matter is you don't need my screen shots for evidence. Just open up a couple lobby's yourself. You won't see much differnce. I did it again just now. Try it yourself. Don't take my word for it.

sumdumguy

06-28-2004, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How come in your entire defensive argument you ignored the lobby numbers in my post. Those were concrete facts that support my opinon.

[/ QUOTE ]
How come in your entire offensive argument you chose just about the ONLY possible Ub screenshot and compared it to the worst (of many possible) Empire screenshot? Your screenshots are simply misleading.

[ QUOTE ]
You support your position by saying you haven't even played poker in a year! WTF?.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't need to play poker anymore, and haven't done so in over a year, professionally. I do prop for friend(s) though rarely, and also rarely play on friend's prop accounts when they need someone to fill in a shift. I supported my position saying I have regular contact with certified, bona fide, long time, here to stay, professionals with whom I used to spend much time playing with, with whom I remain in regular contact, and which results I have access, speak otherwise.

[ QUOTE ]
I am earning the UB points for even more equity. UB gives points for raked hands and for time at the tables each month.

[/ QUOTE ]
You and I will go earn Ub points. You like the games, I like the software. You prop for their deposit bonuses, I'll prop on my friend's hosting account. The other pros will go earn rake rebates. They can get all the cash they want, we'll show them who's boss when we tally our Ub points at the end of the year.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so not that I sound like a complete effing shill, I am not. I just seem to be the only one here to realize that other sites are offering a lot better incentives to play then the Party sites. Then again, maybe Im not the only one, and thats why the sites have become much much softer then you seem to recall.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. I'm no shill either, and I think Ub has a great offer - their software is sooo awesome! I like playing on my friend's Ub prop account. Their software is soo awesome (did I mention that already?. I even bet they're the only site that has software to tell the props exactly how much we got paid at each table. He cuts me a check for my share of the prop within a week of my filling in a shift for him. I wish everyone else played there too so I can laugh at how much they are contributing to my hourly prop pay.

Party is so dumb to do advertising and affiliate deals. They should just hire more props (especially 2+2'ers) like the other sites. We could all be playing rake free. Wouldn't you make more money playing rake free on a soft site like Ub? Yummy.. all that equity!

Keep up the good work. Soon, everyone will be on Ub!