So THIS is collusion....I think I'm learning

[KingSix]

Had some concerns over collusion on UB last week, but the possible colluders were so tight that it didn't matter. Nothing like a little play at Party to be shown what real collusion is all about!

Colluders are MP2 and Button here.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
UTGA calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTGA calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 3-bets, Button caps, BB calls, UTGA calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTGA checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, BB folds, UTGA calls, MP2 3-bets, Button caps, UTGA calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (15.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTGA checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, UTGA folds, MP2 calls.

River: (19.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP2 bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19.25 BB, won by MP2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP2 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP2 wins 20.25 BB. </font>

Capped Pre Flop, capped the flop, raised on the turn and then folds for $4 on the river!



Worked so well that they try again about 6 hands later. Sadly, the prey catches a runner runner flush to foil their plan. They are MP2 and CO this time.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 3-bets, CO caps, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, UTG calls, MP2 raises, CO 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 caps, CO calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, UTG calls, MP2 3-bets, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (21.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG bets, MP2 raises, CO folds, UTG 3-bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 27.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 27.75 BB, between UTG and MP2.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG (27.75 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Ad 8d (flush, ace high).
MP2 shows Qh Th (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: UTG wins 27.75 BB. </font>



Why not go for the hat trick? They are MP3 and Button this time.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
UTGA calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTGA calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 3-bets, Button calls, UTGA calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
UTGA checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, UTGA folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP3 raises, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, Button folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (13.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.25 BB, between UTG+1 and MP3.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP3 (15.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG+1 shows 8c 8s (two pair, queens and eights).
MP3 shows Kc Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: MP3 wins 15.25 BB. </font>


Both players were from adjacent suburbs in the Los Angeles area.

King

[jslag]

Hand #1 does look very suspicious. I'm not sure though, I've seen stuff like this before from fish who get in too far and fold to river or turn bets, realizing their high card Jack won't cut it.

Anyway, did you report the users and the sketchy hands to support? I don't play at UB, so I'm not sure of their policies, but you should definitely make an effort. Perhaps it will set off flags and they will monitor those users more closely.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif jslag /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[davidross]

The middle hand is the one that strikes me as very suspicious. That guy was capping with nothing. THe other two on their own don't look too bad, but in combination with the others of course the pattern starts to emerge.

Send the hand numbers to support along with the user names of the players. They can see the hole cards even when they are folded, and they will know right away if there is something going on.

I have only run into this twice, once at paradise where it was so obvious I left the table and reported them. I received a reply the next day telling me the two players had been banned. THe other time Party sent me money after investigating two players. THey confiscated their accounts and gave it back to anyone who had sat at the tables with the two of them, whether it was in a colluded hand or not.

[MRBAA]

It's certainly very easy to do this. I used to play with a friend and we'd IM each other -- but never to cheat or tell each other hands while we were both in. We'd just talk over the table or say what we had in a big hand if the other guy was out. But we could just as easily have been colluding in any way we chose.

[stupidsucker]

Yes just report them, and dopnt say a word in the game, or they wise up. The only way they will get in trouble is if you report them. report right away with a professional attitude. Dont cry about it to support. Simply say that you suspect some collusion and would like an investigation. Be smart about when you report and dont spam support.

[KingSix]

Good points SS.

My original e-mail...

You need to look into collusion between the following two players:

xxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx

Both are from the Los Angeles area and they were clearly using the check-raise-reraise pump while sitting two spots apart. As I'm sure you know this is usually the preferred method of trapping someone in between the two colluders. In both cases, one of the players folded on the river for $4 more dollars, despite putting in multiple raises along the way.

I would imagine your access to the hands involved with determine whether this was the case or not.

The two hands in question were:

705xxxxxx (xxxxxx folds for a $4 bet on the river with a $70+ pot)

705xxxxxx (xxxxxx puts in multiple check raises with nothing on the flop only to catch running two pair. I would imagine that xxxxxx had a better hand on the flop. but fellow colluder backed into a better hand)

Thanks, KingSix

I sent another about the third hand a few moments later.

Their reply..

Dear xxxxx,

We are grateful for you to bring to our notice, any complaints regarding cheating on PartyPoker.com. We have completed our investigation in regards to players xxxxxx and xxxxxx

We have investigated the players, verifying their accounts, examining their game patterns, and their standing with the site, in an effort to examine any possible association between them.

Our focus was directed in an effort to examine any possible association either by way of hand histories or by way of any linkages between them by way of financial information or other parameters before coming to any manner of a conclusion.

1.The percentage of games played between the players, which is less them 0.1%. We had further contrasted their game play individually to check whether the same consistency is followed and we confirmed the same.

2.We then studied the frequency of their logins and logouts, in order to confirm any pattern that suggests, that they are scheduling their presence at the tables, but no strange coincidences have shown up either.

3.We then proceeded with a check on their accounts in the given below format: -

-We have proceeded to investigate any Inter Account Transfer's from one account to the other

-We then proceeded to check all their IP's to check up whether their IP's come from a different place then the one that they have mentioned on their accounts.

-We have also checked into their profile information to check up for any similarities in either their profile information or their financial information to indicate any kind of association to each other.

-We have checked up their chat logs to see any kind of personal and prolonged contact with each other.

-Our final effort was directed in an effort to check up all the player that were related to these two accounts (references, similar IPýs, players associated with buddy list, inter account transfers, etc) and any association between any accounts common to both, which would also imply a possibility of the association between these two users.

In this particular case and after a detailed investigation on their hand history and by comparing their style of game play individually, and also based on the above parameters, we have been able to draw a conclusion that there has been no foul play involved here.

We are glad to have players who care about the integrity of PartyPoker.com, and will always investigate fully any suspicious activity submitted by our players. We appreciate your concern in maintaining the integrity of our games and thank you for reporting the same.

These two hands do appear suspicious but except for these two hands, there have been no other instances in the past where the players' activity was suspicious. In view of this, we have put a block on both these players from playing together at a table in future.

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact us at alerts@partypoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist you.

Thank for being a member of our Party Poker family.

Yours sincerely,
Sandy Johnson
Investigations Team,
alerts@partypoker.com
www.partypoker.com (http://www.partypoker.com)


Nice to see that they at least did something about it. I'd like to think that this was the first time they tried this and that they didn't have any time to rip anyone off.

King

[Cosimo]

Hmm, I think I'd rather that they not be blocked from playing together, because (1) there's no proof of foul play, so why restrict their play? and (2) give them more rope.

[top2pear]

If they really don't know each other, though, then they wouldn't even care if they can't play at the same table. Also, why allow them some rope when that just means headaches (i.e., more investigating) for the site? Giving them more rope also allows them the opportunity to bilk players less sophisticated than King who wouldn't notice the suspiciousness of those hands.

I think it's the perfect solution--nothing prevents them from signing up with different handles, credit cards, addresses, etc. and do it all over again, though.

[Senor Choppy]

If people aren't smart enough to beat games higher than 2/4, they aren't smart enough to collude in 2/4 to a degree that hurts you.

Chances are that one of the 2 players is just crazy or stupid. Report them to Party and wait for a response. Even Party is capable of determining whether or not these 2 are up to something.