10 x? 7x? Allin? Uncertain! Your views appreciated please

[TJD]

Thanks all for your feedback on my what to do with AK post.

I am new to tournaments so I am trying to make sense of the tactics employed. This one has me a little confused. Can you please help?

A commom suggestion is to raise 3BB but this is overridden if the BB in relation to your stack is big. Hence the 7BB or 10BB advice to raise all in if you are first in and your stack is less than that.

I can follow that since you are pot committed anyway so it is better to increase your chances of stealing the blinds.

However the implication therefore is if you have a big enough stack then you can "afford" to raise only 3BB.

Except on the very rare occasions that you have been dealt AA or KK; as I understand it, late in the competition you just want the blinds! (I may be wrong of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif)You definitely do NOT want a showdown if you have a big stack.

So, if I am in the BB late in the tournament and the button who has been raising a lot raises 3BB from his 11BB stack, my thinking might be "OK, he might have been dealt a monster, but that is unlikely. It is more likely that he has a reasonable raising hand or he is stealing"

Now, if I have a hand that I will clearly play and I have a decent stack such that my reraise might apply pressure and just calling the raise would commit me to the pot anyway then I will of course reraise all in.

However, what if my hand is marginal in terms of getting involved? In this case the extra chance that the button may be stealing makes a reraise allin more appealing. I might win it there.

If the logic above is at all sensible then it is safer for the button to raise all in since I would now be forced to fold the marginal hands as I am unable to reraise and gain "fold equity". I will need a better hand to fight back.

On the other hand if the button is just expecting the blinds to either fold or call in the vast majority of cases then his view will be that he either wins the blinds or gets to see a flop in good position to steal if everyone misses.

(I could presumably take these mind games on several more levels /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

How does this dilemma actually pan out in the real world rather than my theoretical one?

TYIA

Trevor

[Bigwig]

There are a lot of variables here, of course. The biggest is where the money cut off line is, and if you're already in. Also, the differences between prizes. I think we're in Single table forum, so in that case, I'm assuming you're not in the money yet.

In this case, I'd push all-in with any big hand (pairs of 9s or higher), AK, or AQ. Otherwise, I'm folding, and waiting to get in the money.

But as I said, there are a lot of variables.

[PrayingMantis]

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Except on the very rare occasions that you have been dealt AA or KK; as I understand it, late in the competition you just want the blinds! (I may be wrong of course )You definitely do NOT want a showdown if you have a big stack.


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This is not very accurate. You absolutely want the action if you hold a big-pair, whether if you're a big-stack, a small stack or whatever, unless in very rare and specific cases, where your $EV is higher if you don't play your monster hand to maximize CEV (it's discussed in Sklansky's TPFAP, and was discussed on these forums many times, but these are rare cases).

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So, if I am in the BB late in the tournament and the button who has been raising a lot raises 3BB from his 11BB stack, my thinking might be "OK, he might have been dealt a monster, but that is unlikely. It is more likely that he has a reasonable raising hand or he is stealing"

Now, if I have a hand that I will clearly play and I have a decent stack such that my reraise might apply pressure and just calling the raise would commit me to the pot anyway then I will of course reraise all in.


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Yes, these are good points. It's all a question of risk vs. reward. Do you think he'll fold to a reraise? Do you think you have a stronger hand? Do you think he's raising you from the button with random hands? There are many variables here, some of them are pure psychological, as much of the "fight for blinds" in tourneys is a psychological battle.

It's important to remamber another point: steals from the button are more dangarous than steals from SB, if you're BB. Because the button might have position on you for the rest of the hand (if you're re-rasing, for instance, and he calls), while you have position on SB. However, positional advantage can be reversed, since in certain cases you have the advantage of acting first on the flop, as when using the "stop&go". These all aspects should be calculated into your game.

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However, what if my hand is marginal in terms of getting involved? In this case the extra chance that the button may be stealing makes a reraise allin more appealing. I might win it there.


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This is correct for certain situations too. Basically, if you're going for the "folding equity" of a certain move, the hand ITSELF, which you hold, is less and less important. And another point is that you want your opponents to pay more, as much as your position and hand is weaker/marginal. Few examples: you are quite happy to see a flop along with 1 or 2 other players if you hold AA (it doesn't matter, for this point, what was the exact PF action). You are a bit more worried to get a flop with 2 players if you hold KK, even more worried if you hold QQ, and with JJ, for instance, in many cases, you'll be very happy to win the blinds and move on, if the blinds are high enough. Therefore, you'll clearly want to play the "weaker" hands in the above list, "stronger" than the stronger hands. BUT - it's very importnat NOT to give information about what hand you hold (i.e, raising a bit more with JJ, mini raising with AA, etc.). This is very bad. So, you basically have to harmonize between 2 contradicting concept: 1) making your opponents pay more to see a flop (or isolate), when you have a relatively weaker hand 2) But not adjust your raises according to the strength of your hand, so they wont know if you raise now with 33 or AA.

[ QUOTE ]
If the logic above is at all sensible then it is safer for the button to raise all in since I would now be forced to fold the marginal hands as I am unable to reraise and gain "fold equity". I will need a better hand to fight back.



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You are correct that by raising all-in, button will make you fold marginal hands you might have reraised if he only raised small. However, the mere fact that you make him raise all-in to win only the blinds, can be good to you - he's much more exposed now, i.e, he CAN'T get away from a hand. By raising small, he might fold to a reraise. By pushing, he's going to lose it all in case you happen to have a real nice hand, and you're willing to call.

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On the other hand if the button is just expecting the blinds to either fold or call in the vast majority of cases then his view will be that he either wins the blinds or gets to see a flop in good position to steal if everyone misses.


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Yes. If the blinds usually fold, raising from the button might become automatic. If they only call sometimes, it's still good, especially if they play in a predictable way on the flop. The best weapon against steals-raises, is, of course, steal re-raises. It is discussed in TOP, and it's an important concept, in any kind of poker, IMO. Aggressive opposition is always more difficult to play against.

I hope this answers some of your questions. These are very complicated concepts, there is still much more to think about it, and I'm certainly in the process of learning all the subtleties myself, through thinking, reading and expirience.