The way Party does it makes no sense....

[Syntax]

Recently, players with little to no money in their accounts get redeposit bonuses or free money. Players with balances, and who actually play at the site regularly get nothing.

I play at a few sites and generally have $1k at each site sitting around at any given time. So naturally I dont get any of these reload bonus offers.

So what I guess I have to do now is just cash out everyday from Party and leave a couple pennies balance. I assume they pay a transaction fee to Neteller or how else would Neteller remain in business? Member to member transfers are 1.5% vig, so cashing in and out $1,000 at a time will cost them somewhwere around $30 a day (Im sure their fees are significantly less though). But for arguments sake, thats just a lot of wasted money. When all they have to do is award everyone the same $100 bonus fairly. They make back most of it in rake anyway.

So since I play at the site and pay the rake without already, that makes me a less valuable player and that annoys the [censored] out of me.

UB seems to appreciate and reward their players more then any other site I can think of. I suppose thats because they have a solid team of pro "ambassadors". Maybe Full Tilt with their pro base will have a similar attitude.

[Thythe]

Cashing in and out everyday won't help. Your account needs to be consistently empty for at least a couple of weeks. Every time you buy back in, it gets reset. Party isn't trying to reward players for playing on their site, they are a business! The title of the bonus is "comeback bonus." Why do they need you to come back when you are already playing there?

[Uston]

I have no problem with Party's bonus system. I've received bonus emails before when I've had 8K in my Party account. I may have received more if my account had no balance but I defintely wasn't getting stiffed.

What I do have a problem with is not being elligible for any rake reduction for the simple fact that I've been playing on Party for three years.

[Syntax]

This is analogous to walking into the grocery store and seeing Miller Lite suitcases on sale and then upon checkout being told that the sale price is only for people who drink Budwieser or don't drink beer at all.

Really, why are so many people so loyal to Party? What does Party do for their players that makes them special. It's probably because they are an affiliate or get a nice rake rebate from some affiliate. Not me, I was stupid enough to sign up with them in the beginning, long before the affiliate kickback craze started.

[BirthdayBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is analogous to walking into the grocery store and seeing Miller Lite suitcases on sale and then upon checkout being told that the sale price is only for people who drink Budwieser or don't drink beer at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its more like the Budweiser marketing rep seeing some guys drinking Heineken and giving them a big discount coupon for Bud. Then seeing you drinking Bud and passing you by. Only if you find out about the other guy getting the coupon do you get pissed off.

[Losing all]

No self respecting Heineken man would drink a buttswiper, but point taken.

[Syntax]

However, if Heinekin is loyal to its drinkers, they will be more resistent to changing brands despite being able to save a few bucks one time. This is why cigarette smokers are loyal to the same brand, I dont think Camel will accept your Marlboro miles.

[Syntax]

are you saying that a good business model is: "do not reward your happy customers, focus all resources on getting new customers"? If thats the way you run your business I think you'll find yourself spending twice as much time, effort and money trying to get back the customers you lost.

also, by your logic, youre saying that I would not only have to cash out but stop playing at Party entirely for a few weeks, before Party tries to lure me back with bonus?
In the meantime I would just have to patronize thier competitors games and fill thier pockets. IMO if youre Party, anything that causes your players to play somewhere else is a BAD idea.

[BirthdayBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
are you saying that a good business model is: "do not reward your happy customers"

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says they are happy customers? You don't sound happy.

the happy ones play poker for fun. People desperate for the bonus are playing not for fun, but for money. They are not truly loyal - if Party gets down to a normal fishiness level, these guys will abandon ship.

[daveymck]

It is standard marketing policy, they have spent a lot on bonuses etc to get these players, they have stopped playing for whatever reason so you try and get them back by offering a little incentive.

Other companies do it for example I get my groceries online but I have moved workplaces recently and am now in central London so havent used them in three weeks, last week I got an email saying you havent shopped with us come back and heres £5 off your next bill. I am sure people who are ordering every week are not getting this bonus.

Party will do what it has too to keep the numbers ticking over, regular players do get some rewards (ie release bonuses), the majority on here get a rake rebate and lets face it good players are making money out of those taking up the bonuses who probably busted out last time they played so its fresh food for better players.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently, players with little to no money in their accounts get redeposit bonuses or free money. Players with balances, and who actually play at the site regularly get nothing.

I play at a few sites and generally have $1k at each site sitting around at any given time. So naturally I dont get any of these reload bonus offers.

So what I guess I have to do now is just cash out everyday from Party and leave a couple pennies balance. I assume they pay a transaction fee to Neteller or how else would Neteller remain in business? Member to member transfers are 1.5% vig, so cashing in and out $1,000 at a time will cost them somewhwere around $30 a day (Im sure their fees are significantly less though). But for arguments sake, thats just a lot of wasted money. When all they have to do is award everyone the same $100 bonus fairly. They make back most of it in rake anyway.

So since I play at the site and pay the rake without already, that makes me a less valuable player and that annoys the [censored] out of me.

UB seems to appreciate and reward their players more then any other site I can think of. I suppose thats because they have a solid team of pro "ambassadors". Maybe Full Tilt with their pro base will have a similar attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. The bonuses bring in (or back) the chum. Your job is to be the shark.

[jwvdcw]

Another way to think of it is this...

Party has obviously made its reputation off of being the site with the most fish. This fact has kept them in business. I don't think any of us serious players would play at their crappy site if it weren't for the fish. Well, most people that deposit money, lose it all, then don't come back for a while are fish. So they want to get them back. The good players like yourself...they don't really want a reputation as a site that has tons of good players.

All in all, it is good marketing for them to try to get back customers.

And why are you even complaining? Its not like they took anything from you! Since you like analogies so much, heres one for you: There are two little kids. One day, one of the moms gives her son a new bike that cost $50 just as a nice gift to say I love you. The other mom gives her kid a bike that costs $500. The one kid is as happy as can be until he sees the other kid's better bike. Then he goes and gets jealous and complains.

See the similarities? Party does reward loyal customers. They have freerolls for the tournament leaders, Lucy's Bonanza, and other events which escape my memory. However, they reward some players even more. So instead of being jealous of those whom Party rewards more why not just be thankful for your gift you ungrateful ox?

[Syntax]

This isnt true. I was happy untill I find out Party has been rewarding other players and not me. Their methods have made me feel like they don't value my business. And it is quite possible that they don't. Maybe I bust too many of their recreational players before the rake gets the best of them.

Yes, I do play for money, but that in no way at all exludes it from playing for fun at the same time. I pay the same rake as anyone else on that site. If I get a $100 bonus, its like playing rake free for a day or two. I don't have to do anything special to claim it, just play the same games Im already playing, so why shouldnt I be pissed about not getting it? I

[Syntax]

I think it is sick for a mother to love one of her children more then the other and show obvious favoritism. She should be ashamed of herself.

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is sick for a mother to love one of her children more then the other and show obvious favoritism. She should be ashamed of herself.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've got ourselves a liberal here folks. Entitlement mentality.

Who says we can't treat our kids different?
If one kid is smart, the parents may send them to an expensive college.
If one kid has a disability, the other kids may feel neglected.
The King's oldest son gets to be King, the second son usually doesn't. (In US, oldest son gets to be President /images/graemlins/grin.gif)
If I write my will with an unequal distribution among my kids, am I a bad parent? Why not outlaw wills then?

Party can do what it wants. You can do what you want - no one forces you to play there.

[Thythe]

I definitely see your point Syntax. It doesn't seem fair, but in the long run, it will make Party more money than giving all the regulars a bonus. Lets be honest here, are you really going to leave Party for not giving you a bonus? I really don't think so. Even if you do, 99% of the regulars are not going to leave because they didn't get a bonus. So why should Party just throw money away on players who are going to play anyway? It's not fair, but it's optimal profits for them.

[Losing all]

A liberal on this site? unreal. Next thing you know they'll start taking the terrorists side in the other topic forum.

[cardcounter0]

Thanks for giving the fish who have gone broke a little bonus so they will come back and play so I can clean them out again.

Oh, and the sharks with $1000 in their account ... could you give them a special higher rake maybe. You could use that extra money to attract more fish for me.

Thanks.

[Syntax]

[ QUOTE ]
it will make Party more money than giving all the regulars a bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]
This brings us back to the main point. I think it's just been an assumption that it will cost Party money? But how much truth is there to that assumption? I think you will agree that you tend to play a little longer or a little more during the week or day you get a bonus to clear. That still leaves the rest of the month to play. Are you gonna stop playing early that month because you hit an hourly quota or somthing? No, Party will tend to get more time out of thier regulars and they still have to play an bunch of hands, so with the rake its probably close to a wash for Party. However, they are creating a loyal and stable fan base. This should be very important to them for two reasons. 1) The poker boom will fade out soon, and it will be a few years before it resurfaces. The players that will still be in action are the ones they are generally neglicting now. 2) Paradise Poker. When I first started playing online they were kings, but they got slammed around the poker community for no being playercentric enough. They were the stingiest site when it came to giving bonus, they never did because they didnt have to. But then Party came along, and UB and Stars and if you check out Pokerpulse, where is Paradise? its about 4th. I bet my bankroll they regret not building a loyal customer base through rewards and appreciation. This can happen to Party at any moment.

You are exactly right about one thing. Players arent going to leave because they didnt get a bonus. Players are going to leave because they can get one somewhere else.

Another thing, look why poker is so popular, WPT, WSOP. Look who is behind Full Tilt and UB etc. New players are going to flock to these sites to play along with the "tv stars". No one gives a damn about Lucy. Mike Sextons not gonna reel them into Party. But I think a lot new players would like to play with Ivey or Lederer.

[Syntax]

You should be more concerned with improving your game and less concerned with Party attracting fish. Because after you're done "cleaning them out" who do you think becomes the new fish?

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is sick for a mother to love one of her children more then the other and show obvious favoritism. She should be ashamed of herself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, you missed something. He was talking about two different moms; one giving her kid a $50 bike, and the other giving hers a $500 bike. The kid who got the $50 bike was happy until seeing the $500 bike the other kid got. Then, instead of being grateful for the gift he did get, he thinks he's deprived because he didn't get the one the other kid did.

In any case, the situation of the bonuses is actually analogous to what many businesses do; I see all kinds of newspaper, magazine, cable, satellite, etc. subscription specials that are only offered to non-customers (or at least people who haven't been subscribers for 3-6 months or so). They're trying to drum up additional business, not give rebates to those who are already customers, simply out of the goodness of their hearts. I've seen DirecTV ads for specials that I wish were going on when I was in the market for a dish, but the incentives they offered me at the time were enough to induce me to dump my cable in favor of the dish, so I really can't complain now that I didn't get the best possible offer back when I was ready to sign up. Who knows; maybe next month, the offers will get even better, and the people I'm jealous of now will in turn be jealous of even newer customers.

Anyway, as was already pointed out in this thread, Party does give rewards/perks to ongoing customers, in the form of freerolls that are only open to players who have played a certain amount, etc. The bonuses are simply efforts to bring back people who've stopped playing there for some reason; they want these people to get back into the habit of playing there (and yes, that's good for you too, because the occasional players are likely to be the ones that feed the regulars). Sorry you're jealous of those who get the bonuses, but I think it's your perceptions that are the problem, not their business model. If you want a bonus, you probably just need to stop playing there for a while, and play somewhere else. But if you choose to play at Party anyway, then you're making the choice that what you get out of continuing play there is worth more to you than a bonus.

-Mike

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is sick for a mother to love one of her children more then the other and show obvious favoritism. She should be ashamed of herself.

[/ QUOTE ]

the analogy was with two different mothers and each had their own kid.

[cardcounter0]

The $50 refer-a-friend offer?

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[gabyyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
Cashing in and out everyday won't help. Your account needs to be consistently empty for at least a couple of weeks. Every time you buy back in, it gets reset. Party isn't trying to reward players for playing on their site, they are a business! The title of the bonus is "comeback bonus." Why do they need you to come back when you are already playing there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thythe, you have to admit that this marketing strategy by party makes no sense. One would think that they want to keep their players who consistantly pay rake happy instead of people who rarely deposit. This marketing plan is the complete opposite. They may be a buisness, but most buisnesses do not operate this way.

[Thythe]

I think you're right that they want to keep their current/consistent customers happy, but they seem to be able to do this without offering them the bonus for two reasons. One is that most of the regulars don't even know that these comeback bonuses are being offered (unless of course they are checking here at 2+2). The other is that the Party empire has all the fish making leaving to most of these players not an option.

I can see where giving the old players bonuses too might be worthwhile as it all comes back in rake, but I can certainly understand Party's position.

[gabyyyyy]

I stopped depositing at party poker months ago for reasons that have no bearing on this argument. Every month after I stopped depositing I would get the email saying they put 50.00 in my account. From that point I'd just play the 50.00, bust out and not deposit. This marketing strategy has not lured me back into depositing. It has actually done quite the opposite, instead of depositing I just wait for the free money in my inbox.

So how exactly is this working?

Syntax is right.

[cardcounter0]

yeah, the 29,919 players logged on to Party right now is probably rigged.
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[gabyyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, the 29,919 players logged on to Party right now is probably rigged.


[/ QUOTE ]

Out of those 29,000+ players, about 3900 have real money accounts.

BTW who said anything about rigging?

[Syntax]

Everyone has seems to have gotten this really confused. I am no way jealous of any bonus, and Party is not the only site with easy games. I easily beat the games at UB and Stars as well. I just think Party has some real business dimwits running the show.

Your argument contains a major falllacy, the one that just because other people are doing it, its the right thing. Sure, there are companies that do focus on new customers versus customer retention. The opposite is also true. Take saturn cars for example they focus on keeping owners happy and many buy another Saturn next time around. Take another look at AOL, they tried to just keep getting new subscribers and not focus on the service to the ones they already had and now they are bombing.

Look at Empires VIP point system. Who was the genius that came up with that. Almost everyone here will tell you that the way they award points is so flawed it is ridiculous.

That point was just to show you that just because they are doing what they are doing doesnt mean its the best for anyone involved. They are prone to mistakes.

The major one being that I am not the only one that doesnt get the bonuses and I am not the only one aware of that fact. Out of the 30,000 players a day, how many do you think might leave the site each month thinking they found a way to get a bonus? How many "fish" dont come back right away because they know if they wait a while, Party will bribe them? Do you think these players just bust out and dissapear into nowhere untill Party beckons once again? No, they go play somewhere else they can get a freebie for a while.

Party is essentially rewarding their own players to take some time off and play at other sites for a while to get a comeback bonus. I wouldn't compare online poker to satellite or cable tv companies. I would compare them to something much closer to home. Casinos. Its no secret that Casinos go out of their way to keep thier regular players. They will do anything they have to keep thier players out of other casinos. I guarantee you that this will be the mentality of the successful online poker rooms still operating in 5 years from now. Wanna bet?

[Syntax]

then the analogy is wrong. think about it.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of those 29,000+ players, about 3900 have real money accounts.


[/ QUOTE ]

I bet you had to take off your shoes and socks for that advanced computation.

Jimbo

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped depositing at party poker months ago for reasons that have no bearing on this argument. Every month after I stopped depositing I would get the email saying they put 50.00 in my account. From that point I'd just play the 50.00, bust out and not deposit. This marketing strategy has not lured me back into depositing. It has actually done quite the opposite, instead of depositing I just wait for the free money in my inbox.

So how exactly is this working?

Syntax is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's working at least to the extent that you're using the bonus. That means you're helping to generate more rake, making you in effect a prop player (with a little more freedom than usual).

-Mike

[Pokeraddict]

right now there are 32,000 players on according to the software, according to Pokerpulse there are 17,475 players (I combined tourney and ring players) and it was updated 15 minutes ago. The 3900 on 29,000 is WAY off.

[gabyyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
right now there are 32,000 players on according to the software, according to Pokerpulse there are 17,475 players (I combined tourney and ring players) and it was updated 15 minutes ago. The 3900 on 29,000 is WAY off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does pokerpulse differentiate between play money players and real money players? Also that number does not take into account people playing multiple tables. So if one person is playing 4 tables that are counted as 4 seperate players in poker plus.

I would say the 17k figure is very very high.

[ChessPlayer]

Are you going to leave the site over this? If not, then what they are doing is perfectly correct from a marketing standpoint. Spend the bonus dollars on the players who will leave if they don't get it, not on the players who will play regardless. Whether or not you think its fair is beside the point; it is the most efficient use of their marketing dollar.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
right now there are 32,000 players on according to the software, according to Pokerpulse there are 17,475 players (I combined tourney and ring players) and it was updated 15 minutes ago. The 3900 on 29,000 is WAY off.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean gabyyyyyy might be wrong on statistics? Shocker.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped depositing at party poker months ago for reasons that have no bearing on this argument. Every month after I stopped depositing I would get the email saying they put 50.00 in my account. From that point I'd just play the 50.00, bust out and not deposit. This marketing strategy has not lured me back into depositing. It has actually done quite the opposite, instead of depositing I just wait for the free money in my inbox.

So how exactly is this working?

[snip]

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like it is working perfectly. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone has seems to have gotten this really confused. I am no way jealous of any bonus, and Party is not the only site with easy games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll take your word for that. You're not jealous.


[ QUOTE ]
I easily beat the games at UB and Stars as well. I just think Party has some real business dimwits running the show.

Your argument contains a major falllacy, the one that just because other people are doing it, its the right thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're only playing attention to half of my argument at best. The part you're glossing over is that Party does offer rewards to regular players. The people who only play their bonus dollars are not all that likely to qualify for the freerolls, the bad beat jackpot, or the other promotions they offer. Plus they do periodically offer reload bonuses to regular players. While I haven't performed a thorough analysis of this, I suspect that the incentives end up being worth more than the comeback bonuses.

The point of a comeback bonus, or a new player bonus, is to get people in the habit (or back in the habit) of playing there. For that purpose, it needs to be a bit more straightforward than ongoing rewards for regular play. If a site offers points, etc., the new or infrequent player is going to say, "So what?" It isn't until a player takes the time to try out the programs that he/she will realize it's worth anything. But $20 or $50 or $100, even with strings attached, will get almost anyone's attention. And even if the player plays out the bonus and loses it all, the player is still helping to fill a table and generate rake.

I really don't think their approach is as dimwitted as you make it out to be.


[ QUOTE ]
Sure, there are companies that do focus on new customers versus customer retention. The opposite is also true. Take saturn cars for example they focus on keeping owners happy and many buy another Saturn next time around. Take another look at AOL, they tried to just keep getting new subscribers and not focus on the service to the ones they already had and now they are bombing.

[/ QUOTE ]

As previously mentioned, Party is actually doing both. I doubt they're in any danger of going under. Yes, I agree that focusing on getting new customers without doing anything to keep their existing ones would be stupid, but I disagree that that is what Party is doing.


[ QUOTE ]
Look at Empires VIP point system. Who was the genius that came up with that. Almost everyone here will tell you that the way they award points is so flawed it is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but Empire isn't actually Party. They simply share the same servers, while being managed by a different company. I'm not familiar enough with the VIP points to comment on them.


[ QUOTE ]
That point was just to show you that just because they are doing what they are doing doesnt mean its the best for anyone involved. They are prone to mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but then, so is everyone. If the bonuses weren't doing something to help their business, they wouldn't keep it up.


[ QUOTE ]
The major one being that I am not the only one that doesnt get the bonuses and I am not the only one aware of that fact. Out of the 30,000 players a day, how many do you think might leave the site each month thinking they found a way to get a bonus? How many "fish" dont come back right away because they know if they wait a while, Party will bribe them? Do you think these players just bust out and dissapear into nowhere untill Party beckons once again? No, they go play somewhere else they can get a freebie for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the tables at Party seem pretty full to me. I've had trouble just getting a seat on several occasions.


[ QUOTE ]
Party is essentially rewarding their own players to take some time off and play at other sites for a while to get a comeback bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but in so doing, they're forfeiting other rewards. If I had the BR and the talent, I'd be going after those, and not worrying about the occasional comeback bonus. And I'm not going elsewhere to play for real money, because I am not currently in a position to feed my BR just now (more for "domestic tranquility" reasons than anything else; if I were single, I'd probably be more inclined to create a real roll and get some serious play in); what I'm doing is playing play money or freeroll tournaments to have some fun and try out a few different ideas. On the occasions I do get a comeback bonus, I see what I can do with it, and even if I don't deposit, I still help them keep the tables full. And it's likely that Party will be the place I make my next deposit, because they have given me reasons to play there.


[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't compare online poker to satellite or cable tv companies. I would compare them to something much closer to home. Casinos. Its no secret that Casinos go out of their way to keep thier regular players. They will do anything they have to keep thier players out of other casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, they do reward players and offer incentives to keep playing there, but I've noticed a couple of things that some casinos have done to facilitate going to another casino. The Taj in AC, for example, has walkways to both Resorts and Showboat. They're right next door to each other, but the walkways are very convenient, especially if the weather is bad. And I was at Foxwoods a while back, and decided to ask for directions to Mohegan Sun. Rather than just telling me, they whipped out a pre-printed sheet with the directions to and from. That hardly seems like "doing anything they can" to keep me out of the other casinos. What they're doing is acknowledging the reality that I may not want to spend all my time at one casino, and offering friendly assistance in going to their competitors. In turn, they are building goodwill that will keep me coming back.


[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee you that this will be the mentality of the successful online poker rooms still operating in 5 years from now. Wanna bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps. But I still think you're overlooking what Party actually is doing for the regulars, and focusing only on the comeback bonuses. If that were all they were doing, yes it would be pretty dimwitted, but it isn't. There are other promotions going on at the same time to encourage people to play there.

The main problem I see with Party is their excessive rakes; if they start struggling, I suspect that offering rake rebates to regular players will be the best move they can make.

-Mike

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped depositing at party poker months ago for reasons that have no bearing on this argument. Every month after I stopped depositing I would get the email saying they put 50.00 in my account. From that point I'd just play the 50.00, bust out and not deposit. This marketing strategy has not lured me back into depositing. It has actually done quite the opposite, instead of depositing I just wait for the free money in my inbox.

So how exactly is this working?

[snip]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what makes the bonus work, most people who left the site did so because they lost their money. When they get a good offer and redeposit they then lose it to others. So WE are getting a bonus, just that there is an intermediary.

[Pokeraddict]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
right now there are 32,000 players on according to the software, according to Pokerpulse there are 17,475 players (I combined tourney and ring players) and it was updated 15 minutes ago. The 3900 on 29,000 is WAY off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does pokerpulse differentiate between play money players and real money players? Also that number does not take into account people playing multiple tables. So if one person is playing 4 tables that are counted as 4 seperate players in poker plus.

I would say the 17k figure is very very high.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot possibly believe everyone there is playing 3 games at once, even if they did that is still 6000 players. Many people do not multi table but those that do play 2. Only an online pro or an action junkie plays 3+ at a time.

I would think that 10,000 unique players is appropriate.

No, play money players do not count.

[ohgeetee]

93% of all statistics are completely made up.