The Second of the Very Loose Plays

[patrick dicaprio]

Feel free to flame away here but I did have good reasons for this play:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed)

Hero (t1260)
SB (t1850)
BB (t2500)
UTG (t715)
MP (t3540)
CO (t3635)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Hero raises to t600, SB raises to t1850, BB folds, Hero calls t660 (All-In).

Flop: (t3310) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t3310) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t3310) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3310

So basically I got lucky and drew a straight.

Pat

[PrayingMantis]

Is this for real? it's awful. Terrible. Losing play from any possible aspect. Only explanation will be that you had one of those famous pattern maps, and knew what cards are going to come. Another possible explanation is that you had to leave the game (Actually, sitting out is probably better EV than your move). This is one of the worst played hands I remember reading here, ever (Maybe I'm exagarating, please forgive me... /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

OK. So what are the "reasons"?

Edit: I hope you're not going to say you were pot-commited after his reraise, and had the odds to call ... I really really hope...

Edit 2: To be more specific and constructive - pushing with this hand when it's folded to you, is marginally OK in specific sircumstances. I don't think this is one of them. However, the way you played it, putting half your stack in, and then calling another half, is the worst option possible for playing your hand, IF you are so eager to play it, for some reason.

[TJD]

[ QUOTE ]
pushing with this hand when it's folded to you, is marginally OK in specific sircumstances. I don't think this is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just starting in tournaments; would you please help by explaining this in more detail? Unless the blinds ALWAYS called or unless the other players NEVER raised anything. I would be pushing here since I may not get another chance to steal and my stack is looking a bit dodgy.

TYIA

Trevor

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I am just starting in tournaments; would you please help by explaining this in more detail? Unless the blinds ALWAYS called or unless the other players NEVER raised anything. I would be pushing here since I may not get another chance to steal and my stack is looking a bit dodgy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, pushing here with this hand is probably more than marginally OK, you are correct. You are 5th stack, have 6XBB, and you should look for spots for steal-pushing. This is not a bad one, with your position. Another fact that makes it stronger is that the big-stacks already folded. So this might be a good spot. It Depends on how loose/tight the blinds are. However, there are reasons for waiting for a somewhat better hand - especially if there's a chance you'll have to stand a showdown.

But still, as I said, pushing is VERY different from raising 3XBB (which is half your stack) and then calling the rest with 98s. By raising 3XBB, you are inducing some aggressive players to push against you with a wider variety of hands you'd face if you had pushed to begin with. When you call their raise, you are now facing a hand that is almost surely ahead of you, either as a big or a small favorite (you can hope for Ax, Kx, when x&lt;8. in these cases you're about a coin-flip. Edit: and, of course, that's about the case against pairs lower than 8's). When you do the raise-call, you'll much more often face it. When you push, the hands that will call you will be generally stronger, but many times you'll win it uncontested, which is extremely important, in EV terms. It's much more difficult to win it uncontested with the 3XBB raise, and since you're going to be pot commited anyway, you should push.

Raising small to induce a bigger raise can be a good move with certain strong hands, in certain situations and against certain opponents. This is clearly not the case.


I hope I wasn't too blunt in my original reply. But he specifically said "Feel free to flame away"... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[TJD]

Thx for reply; it makes me feel a bit better /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I started a thread on raises and when to go all in ; would you mind looking at that for me please if you have time? I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks

Trevor

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I started a thread on raises and when to go all in ; would you mind looking at that for me please if you have time? I'd appreciate your input.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. I've read it, and it looks like a very interesting post. But I'm too tired now to think about it clearly (it's 2 AM here now). I promise I'll get to it tomorrow... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[HajiShirazu]

Pushing is fine here, you have a hand that has some protection against middle pairs and isn't too bad against overs, but don't make some pot-committing raise...save those for hands which you want a call against. You did have to call after the reraise, even if he has an overpair you are getting the odds to call.