Is Party Rewarding bad play . . .

[T0asty]

Or am I just the unluckiest person in the world. All week I've been getting rivered to death and if i'm not, i'm up against a superior hand (I hit a set they hit a bigger set), the play any two cards are killing me /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I've been through my stats for today and there were 3 people including me who had a vpip below the 30s (mine was 25%). The rest are all over the 40s and 50s. vpipSB 35% BB15%.

I know you have swings but this has been happeing to me all week, 1 table i'm up another i'm down. I've been through all my stats/hands there's nothing I can do /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'm not paying people off when i'm obivously beaten.
I'm value betting my winners.

I've even gone as far to watch replays of almost all my starting hands, they either miss completely or I hit and get outdrawn. I'm making them pay to draw but it seems like they hit every single time, unless I have a drawing hand of course.

I'm seriously getting tempted to quit 6max and go back to playing SnGs.

So frustated, I know there are up swings and down swings but this has been a week long downswing now. the players are sooo bad, I should be killing the game.

Sorry for the rant all, apart from playing weak /tight I can't see any solution. I'd post HHs, but I'd be doing nothing but posting bad beats.

[Nick B.]

Maybe you just aren't a good short handed player. 25% VPIP is high if you aren't a good post flop player. Mine is around 20%. If you were winning at SnG's then why did you switch? If you start playing weak/tight, the beats are only going to get worse. On your draws, if you are heads up you should try and get your opponent to fold, with drawing out being your backup should they call. Maybe you should be paying people off more. There are lots of times when I think that I should fold a hand because there is no way a normal player would have a hand that I could beat, but then I call down and they have something like ten high.

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
25% VPIP is high if you aren't a good post flop player. Mine is around 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is my problem too. I am winning at 5/10 SH but not as much as I would like. My VP$IP is just a shade over 25%. I know my post flop needs a lot of work. I saw Vehn's numbers and most of them are similar to mine except his VP$IP which is just over 20% and his results (even though based on just a 20K sample) are where I would like mine to be.

I will try getting a little tighter preflop until my postflop comes around.

[T0asty]

I'd actually say my post flop play has been quite strong, almost everytime I fold a good hand Its usually multiway and Isee a hand that would have beaten mine.

The flip side I'm calling down with easy cards to fold and winning when my opps are bluffing.

I'm not struggling with the game mechanics of 1/2 its the never ending bad beats, I just can't get people to fold there trash hands and they out draw me. I'm not giving free cards, I'm CRing, 3 betting, capping and giving my opps every chance to fold but they just stay in and river me.

I've kept very calm and never blasted a bad player although I may make the odd comment "Nice capping of the turn, really disguised your rivered flush".

I'm a lot calmer now and think I'm going to have to buckle down until the percentages catch up with me.

Example KK 62.96%WR for a profit of 0.30BB a hand. I also think my AA had been doing overly well and the bad beats with that have been balancing. TT has been killed, (1.43)BBs a hand this week. I'd post some hands but they are blatent bad beats.

O I switched from SnGs as they were getting a little boring and I have always enjoyed Limit more.

I think I'm just in a big downswing and need to stop whining and get on with things, I havn't lost a great deal, I'm having winning sessions but bigger loseing ones. The frustration is effecting me more than anything else.

Thanks for the input though, O I know I'm playing a little looser than I should but a lot of the 1/2 games seem to keep dropping to 4 handed so I loosen up a little.

[HajiShirazu]

Yeah but Vehn is a limit hold'em god, we can't expect results like his.

[bukkrukk]

I wonder if you really should compare VPIP based on 10/20 and 5/10 with party 1/2. Having a VPIP around 20% seems a little tightish when people are playing so badly at 1/2.

But as I have been running badly lately maybe i should try to convert my 25% VPIP to something Vehn-like at 20%.

[lefty rosen]

I think you may not be recognizing the player styles. Ie if you are in first position and have medium pockets 8's or 7's and 4 guys will cold call you don't raise them. Or don't bluff bet brick boards with unimproved Ace and face. You really have to know your players to win at Party. Once I managed to figure out how stupid the monkeys at 1/2 short are I have been crushing the game. I always knew how to run over a weak tight table but loose and stupid have always given me problems.

[T0asty]

As i said its not the game mechanics, my reads have been good, I've exported player notes from PT and updated them, I also stagger start my tabels to get reads easier. Its the river card that has killed me today, all i can do is get the money in with the best hand.

I'm not brand new to 6max, I had been beating it for 3BBs/100 hands for the first 8.5k of hands. the next 1.8k i've lost 8.5BB per 100 hands. Maybe I've been running good and not realised /images/graemlins/frown.gif It hasn't felt like I have, in this time I've had upswings and downswings just not this severe.

I think the key stats are Won $ WSF 30.43%, this is usually 35% running on what I would call avg, and 39% when running hot. The other key stat (Misc page) 3oak 18 ($1.75), half the time I've made 3oak i've lost, there are three big losers in there all delivered on the river, no slowplaying.

I've finished for the night, my finished stats are:

Hands 1818 VPIP 21.45% SB 29.3% All hands 33.44%

not a blind 21.29% Folded to steal SB 86.36% BB 78.79%
BB to steal HU 87.5% << I suspect this is a leak

Att steal blinds 19.33%

W$WSF 30.43%
WTSD 35.36%
Won$ASD 51.16% I seemed to win small pots and lose all the big ones.

RPF - 11.61%
LCRR - 0%

AF
PF .99
F 1.43
T 1.42
R 1.6

I know these are low, not a great deal i could have done about this today though, if i raised pf it would be checked to me post flop and check/called down. There were a lot of hands with raggy blinds that were checked through to the river with 4-5 people in the pot who wouldn't bet only call, I'm sure these hands will bring down these stats.

CRed 30 F50% T 23.33% R 26.67%

KK was also down for the day 5 20% (3.95BB) per hand, the one I won was the blind money.

As I said before I think/hope its just a really crappy downswing, if this is regular poker and I've been running good before now I'm going to have to quit.

I'll be dropping down to .5/1 now to rebuild my roll, I'm playing off this months profit still so its not a complete nightmare yet.

I know its sounds like BS but I think the only way I could have saved money today is playing weak tight and thats going to cost me long term.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
AF
PF .99
F 1.43
T 1.42
R 1.6


[/ QUOTE ]

There is your problem right there. The reason your W$WSF is so low is because your aggression factor is. My AF on the flop and turn is over 3. My aggression on the river is like 1.2 because a lot of times I will check call a bluff and gain a bet when they would not have called a bet.

[T0asty]

I've always struggled to get these stats high, should I check raise more ? A lot of my hands go raise pf, bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river (occasionally check / call save a bet / gain a bet with scare cards, player dependant etc.)

I've started check raiseing the flop more, but i like to call and CR the river if i'm not first to bet, also if you are 1st to bet is it still profitable to try to CR the turn?

Thanks

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I've started check raiseing the flop more, but i like to call and CR the river if i'm not first to bet, also if you are 1st to bet is it still profitable to try to CR the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is profitable to raise at every opportunity with most 6max opponents. You are missing a lot of bets if you are waiting until the river to raise with your good hands, because they are going to call 1, 2, or 3 bets on the flop if they hit part of it. I rarely slowplay and I don't checkraise as much as most. I may cap a set or a flush draw heads up on the flop. You aren't betting and raising enough of your hands if you feel the need to slowplay.

[stripsqueez]

i dont think vehns stats are a heap of use for the 1/2 game - 25% VP$IP is not a problem - certainly its not why you are currently running crap

your aggro stats are very low for a 10/20 6 max player but again i dont think thats terrible in the 1/2 game - i'm not sure what the aggro stats should be for 1/2, its style dependant anyway - they should be significantly lower than a usual winning player in the 10/20 - i suspect they should be higher than yours currently are

i wouldnt be making big changes to how you play because you run crap for a while - with 25%VP$IP and decent post flop skills you will beat the 1/2 game comfortably long term - do 25,000 hands and if your running below say 2.5BB's/100 with your current game plan come back and tell me i have no clue

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[2000Flushes]

It was already mentioned that your VP$IP is a little high so I wont dwell on that ... other than that start posting hands to get feedback.

5/10 can be a nightmare when the dipsticks are catching but in the longrun that luck wont hold out and better play will win. Hence the reason for having a sufficient bankroll to outlast their luck.

[T0asty]

this is 1/2 6max and my vpip is 22% (30% flops seen), this is already super low compared to the typical 1/2 player, most are seeing >50% of the flops.

[Peter_rus]

You must see more flops when facing loosers. When i beated 1/2 i saw 40% of flops (And i think it's good). You must raise PF more flops when facing loosers. Do you raise A3s, JTs etc? Do you construct pots hard when have a good draw?

Just understand if you're reasonable tight/agressive - people mention it generally and fold to you if they're beaten and proceed when they have some odds (sometimes - incorrect odds but anyway - their complex mistakes costs them less). You must forget 'bout bluff, and see more flops (add more suited cards as well as all pairs). Your implied odds are very high with such sort of players.

[Peter_rus]

In addition - your steal attemts are too low. You must raise everytime when you suspect you might have a best hand more than 50-55% of time and it doesn't matter whether they never fold their blinds - you must raise. Consider steal raising from button when you have hands like A3,K8,QT,44, J9s etc.

[2000Flushes]

My bad, I've moved to 5/10 and my brain is stuck on it

30% flops seen is actually a good # for 1/2

[naphand]

You can bluff $1/$2 but only when you have the whole table s**t scared of you, which means you have shown down some big hands recently. That said, some players will never fold.

But there is little point in steal-raising, people won't fold their blinds just as they wont fold anything (to a bluff). If you can kick 1 blind then maybe it is worth trying. I think you should be raising OTB for the blinds (poss. CO) only when you have a better than average hands, or something with showdown value.

I was just thinking today about maybe loosening up for the $1/$2 game along the line you say, certainly any winning full-ring player can kill the SH $1/$2 at Party. Given they call with anything, any draw (no, they never think of odds) or any tiny bit of the flop, then it may well be worth playing a lot more hands. I think it is certainly possible to show profit playing 40% of hands on Party $1/$2.

It's interesting to muse on these things, the problem is no-one really wants to stay at $1/$2, and it is a terrible school in which to prepare for the higher limits. I would strongly recommend people who are serious about moving up should try at least the 4 main sites at $1/$2 (and also the $2/$4 and $3/$6 games):

Stars/UB/Paradise (5-handed)/Party.

Party has the stupidest players, but is the worst school to learn in, Stars has the most aggressive games and most variety in playing styles, UB has the weakest and tightest tables by far (and the rake works out a whopping 1% more than Stars), Paradise I have not played at SH but I think the players there are probably better (from my experience playing there full-ring games) than UB/Party and playing 5-handed games will get good experience for the many times you will be on a table with less than 6 players.

Playing different sites forces you to adapt and manage the different tables, find out what works where, and develop a more rounded game. It will also help you to address the perennial chestnut of how to apply aggression correctly, as you have to adapt to the different table styles. It is too easy just to tar all players with the same brush, and while this may be true most of the time on Party $1/$2, it certainly is not at the higher limits, or the other sites.

I don't know why UB has the tightest/weakest players, but the difference is startling. The only time you see a 3-bet is when you are beat, and a cap appears to be reserved for AA PF and the absolute nuts on the flop. I have had people call me down with a set on a ragged the flop because I 3-bet the flop (with pocket QQ). The whole game there seems to be based on fear: see the flop as cheap as possible, check without the nuts, never bet a draw, call down if raised. They are clueless PF, and I think just be raising PF with the right hands you will win 2-3 BB/hr, 2 of my last 3 table-sessions (228 hands and 236 hands) have seen me get to showdown a grand total of 13 and 14 times respectively... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

UB for pre-flop and bluffing. Stars for aggro and post-flop trickery. Party for tedium and value bets.

[Gazza]

First of all, Toasty, stop worrying. You've seen yourself that your just getting outdrawn the whole time. It will turn around. You are obviously good enough to win at 1/2 (and higher probably) but a little more aggression certainly wouldn't hurt.
Secondly, could someone please explain to me why you should have a vpip of around 20 (Nick B or schneids for example)
I only have 20K hands on my PT but the average VPIP for my games (half at 5-10, half at 10-20) is around 40%. Surely you are missing many profitable opportunities (for good players as you obviously are) if you are playing so tight. Is it just because you are playing so many tables and want to avoid marginal situations? I have a VPIP of just under 28 and a win rate of 4BB/100 (and at least 150K hands prior to getting PT with a win rate of well over 3BB per hour).
Even if you don't believe that these extra 7-8% hands are +EV in themselves (I think they are but not much) then surely they are at least a kind of free advertising budget ( I would be amazed if they had -EV in the party 6 max)that should help you to get a little more action on other hands.

[ctv1116]

Yes, the down is bad, but when the cards are good it is absurdly good.

[T0asty]

OK panic over, nothing to see here, move along...

Just had a 4 hour session and killed it for 14BBs an hour (8.31BB/100 hands). vpip 24.92 but I was running pretty good, a few bad beats but not every other hand, some of my draws came off too. I don't expect to keep this rate up, but its a good feeling to actually start winning again.

I tried to break the run by joining a table winning a couple of blinds and leaving for a new table. After a while I had a few winning sessions logged in PT and a nice win rate started, I know it doesn't make much sense but it certainly boosted my confidence.

I still can't bump up the AF, they just don't want to play /images/graemlins/frown.gif I also think the hands that get checked around hand after hand really kill your stats. I'd bet but I have nothing when it happens (as I'd be betting) and they will call it down.