I'm hittin' the Borg

[BeerMoney]

I'll be going to Borgata on Monday and maybe Tuesday... Probably not the best days to be there, but the only time I can make it there. If anyone's interested in meeting up, lemme know. (I'll be probably be playing 2/4-3/6 or stud.)

BeerMoney

[sfer]

Dunno what it's like during the week, but if it's anything like the weekend and you have the roll, play 6/12 HE. The equivalent online skill level is Party 1/2.

[BeerMoney]

Thanks for the tip.. RU gonna be there?

[sfer]

Gotta work this week. Doubt I'll make it to AC before the fall. Good luck.

[MisterKing]

Interesting observations on Borgata... I did 24 hours of poker over the weekend (Thursday & Friday nights) last week at Borgata & saw quite a variety of play at 2/4 (which is the only stake I played). Now I wish I had at least taken a stab at the 3/6 or 6/12, as I nearly have the bankroll to do so.

The 2/4 was less profitable than I had hoped it would be. I kept asking myself where the drunken college kids and WPT-inspired tourists were, though of course there were always a few here and there. Hell, Maxim Magazine was throwing a party, wasn't it? The fish just weren't as prevalent as I had imagined, though the old people during the daytime were a lot of fun to tool on, and I think most of my profit came from them.

The tables often featured two or three decent, aggressive players sitting with as many as 4 or 5 semi-morons who came and went, sometimes, though not usually, busting their entire stack. It was the presence of the decent, aggressive players (most were local, I took it) I wasn't expecting, esp. late at night, when the tables were often 70+% solid players. These people, at a minimum, 1.) understood position, 2.) made good pre-flop decisions for the most part, 3.) had no fear of capping it post flop when the circumstances warranted, and 4.) were fine with folding as long as was necessary when the cards weren't coming their way.

Seldom did a total calling station/crap player sit down, unlike the Party 1/2 or .50/1 tables where you do frequently see guys who do literally play with no strategy whatsoever. Of the players I did see that fit this mold, one was catching hot and running over everyone else at the table for what must have been 60BB's in a single hour. Another was an old guy pouring tequilla into his corona and his chips into everyone else's stacks.

I found myself facing many more re-raises, check-raises, and caps than I ever do on Party 1/2 or .50/1, and considerably better play generally than online at those limits. This was particularly true after midnight. Put differently, this was NOT the tourist 2/4 game I've seen in Vegas at Luxor, Excalibur, etc where people just had no f***ing clue. Half of my opponents at Borgata were shuffling their chips for chrissake -- not in and of itself a sign of quality play, but certainly an indicator of some previous table time.

Other notes: While I thought the dealers were professional overall, I had a few that were clearly not desirable. One guy, very funny w/a goatee, bragged out loud about knowing how a particular large pot was going to play out, announcing that he "knew who was going to win" and that he "knew you were going to do that" after each action on the river. His Mike Sexton impersonation, while accurate as far as results, cost the guy to my left probably 3 or 4 BB's when he hit his straight to defeat top two and trips. One or two other dealers were far too permissive about people playing out of position, or players pocketing parts of their stack quietly to enable frequent all-ins (a talkative, dark skinned local was doing this repeatedly). Otherwise, the food was great, the floor staff friendly and helpful, and the waitresses better looking than what I saw around the smaller Vegas poker rooms.

Did I just hit an unusual run of decent players thurs & fri, or am I gorssly misreading my opponents (and I'd like to think I wasn't as I've played plenty of live 2/4)?

[MercTec]

Just as a side note...Borgata chips suck to shuffle...they have a magnet or something inside them for easy stacking that makes it nearly impossible to shuffle. I had to resort to the chip twirl instead. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Just as a side note...Borgata chips suck to shuffle...they have a magnet or something inside them for easy stacking that makes it nearly impossible to shuffle. I had to resort to the chip twirl instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had heard about this on 2+2 and was expecting this to be true, but found it not to be. Shuffling was actually very easy, though I'm not sure what role the magnet played in this.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
The 2/4 was less profitable than I had hoped it would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go figure with that absurd rake.

[ QUOTE ]
While I thought the dealers were professional overall, I had a few that were clearly not desirable

[/ QUOTE ]

They start the new dealers in a rotation between the 2/4 and 3/6 tables. That may be why they weren't up to the high standards.

[ QUOTE ]
I kept asking myself where the drunken college kids and WPT-inspired tourists were,

[/ QUOTE ]

They are spewing and bleeding chips like a stabbing victim at the 6-12 and 10-20 games.

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, the food was great, the floor staff friendly and helpful, and the waitresses better looking than what I saw around the smaller Vegas poker rooms

[/ QUOTE ]

The floorpersons at the Borgata are above average. The bosses Sal and Tab are the best IMHO. The waitresses? Oh... My....God. Hotties galore.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I just hit an unusual run of decent players thurs & fri, or am I gorssly misreading my opponents (and I'd like to think I wasn't as I've played plenty of live 2/4)?



[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to bring this up myself as I too was there this Friday and Saturday and played exclusively 2/4. I played a total of 15 hours so I'm sure my observations weren't just an abboration. The tables were MUCH tighter than I've ever seen them there and I've played 2/4 and 3/6 at the Borgata at least 7 times since its opened. I don't know what happened, these games used to be 7 players to a flop for 1 bet on 90% of all hands. This trip I actually asked the BB if he wanted to chop!!! TWICE!!!

MK, I played very late at night on Friday as well, what table where you at? I switched table frequently as I was there with 2 of my friends, I'm thinking we may have been the ones who messed up your table that night. Most of the night and all of the night after midnight I was at a table right next to the high-limit area and there was a guy who fell asleep at the table as well as an asian guy who constantly complained that the dealers weren't shuffling properly and generally being an ass. Me and my friends were all sitting next to each other in the 1, 2, and 3 seats (I was a blithering drunk on my 16th beer but hitting hands like a madman).

[John Deere]

I see no reason to play the 2/4 at the Borgata. The same idiots play the 3/6, and plenty wander into the 6/12 (people seeing 95% of the flops). If you thought that you had any good players at your table whatsoever, then something very strange must have been going on.

If it happens again, ask for a table change.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason to play the 2/4 at the Borgata.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was in AC and I don't have close to the bankroll for 6/12. Also, I think the players at 3/6 actually are a little better and at this point in my life even losing 40BB's at 3/6 would hurt.

[RollaJ]

Hello MisterKing (ThreadHijacker /images/graemlins/grin.gif),
You wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
Half of my opponents at Borgata were shuffling their chips for chrissake -- not in and of itself a sign of quality play, but certainly an indicator of some previous table time.


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems most people learn how to shuffle chips before they learn how to play poker. Probably the one positive contribution Dutch Boyd has made to poker

[John Deere]

If you have the bankroll to buy in to a 2/4 game, you can probably buy in to a 3/6 game.

Are the 3/6 players slightly better than the 2/4 players? Yes, but then again, a guy with one leg runs faster than a guy with none. You have two legs; use them.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have the bankroll to buy in to a 2/4 game, you can probably buy in to a 3/6 game.

Are the 3/6 players slightly better than the 2/4 players? Yes, but then again, a guy with one leg runs faster than a guy with none. You have two legs; use them.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 x 300BB = $1200
6 x 300BB = $1800

In terms of bankroll I don't think its close enough to say that a 2-4 roll is the same as a 3-6 roll. Don't make the jump if you cant afford it, there is no reason to. But I do agree the difference in players skill between the levels is almost negligible. Just in terms of beatability of the game the 3-6 is quite easy enough.

[chrisdhal]

That's if you're playing a ton. If you're going to the casino once a month or so, your bankroll will "scale" to 3/6. At my local casino most people buyin for a rack at both 2/4 and 3/6, and since they both use the $1 chips, it ends up being the same.

If you're playing a lot at the B&M, you'll need more, but most people can get by at either limit on the same BR (IMHO).

[John Deere]

Yes, unless you're playing for a living, the difference between session bankroll requirements for 2/4 or 3/6 is negligible. If you are going for the day, you can buy in to both for a rack of white (or blue, casino depending) with another $100 underneath just in case. If you lose all of that in one sitting, then it's best that you leave, because you either just took some really terrible beats, or are really bad.

[MisterKing]

Thanks for the tips on bankroll, guys. I play almost exclusively online, as B&M are just not close enough to me to be workable except as a "vacation." I easily could have sat in the 3/6, and may do so next time I'm up there. Is it the consensus that the 6/12 players are actually worse than 2/4??? Drunk college kids cannot possibly be that wealthy.

As for the table I was sitting at late Friday night (actually from 4p until 5a Sat.), I was at table 13 I think near the left side of the room and very near the high limit room, but not bordering it. I had a blue Columbus Blue Jackets visor on, and was wearing a black quarter zip shirt -- had my chips stacked in pyramid form. Late Thursday (midnight-6AM) I was up against the back wall, at a table that I think they usually spread 1-5 7/stud.

On tightness, I had three opportunities to chop with the BB, and I raised all three, figuring the EV to be higher regardless of my cards. I think I took one down preflop, one postflop when called, and mucked the third to a re-raise. Ridiculous. But I did see plenty of pots where 90% saw the flop for a single bet, just not as many as I would have liked. The passivity just was not there.

Given the draconian rake, I wonder, do most 2+2ers tip the dealer after a winning pot? I didn't initially, but started to at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the time later in the trip. I guess as far as hourly rate, this is just a killer. Any thoughts?

[BeerMoney]

I've been to the Borg before, so the waitresses and the overall atmosphere were as expected. I luv the Borg and wish i lived closer by.

The play: I played mostly 3/6 HE and some stud. Most of my 3/6 tables were horrible. Plenty of cold calling pre-flop and lots of any-two/ any ace types. I won a decent amount of money, but have to admit that most of my big hands held up, and I didn't suffer many bad beats. I experienced the usual 3/6 table coaches. (Young guys who think they know everything, but don't realize they're sitting at a 3/6 table. Duh!)

One interesting thing that happened.. I was playing with a fat guy at my table who was real interested in being a table bully. He went through a bunch of chips. He was trying to disrupt the loose passive time. 1/2 an hour later, he was out of chips, left our table, and was busted trying to steal some other guys chips.. Just wierd. I guess maybe he had a gambling problem or something. The casino said they were going to prosecute him because the total value of the chips was over $200. I don't have to go on about how stupid it was, but it was strange cause I actually saw him take the guys chips, and when the owner of the chips returned to his seat, I heard and saw him say "that guy stole my chips" and then security.... You've seen the clips of casino security...

One poster said the tables were playing tight. I played one VERY tight 3/6 table, in our first rotation, we did not see a flop for the first five or six hands, and I don't think I saw more than two hands go to showdown for the two rotations I was there. So, yes, it is possible for a table to play tight. But, most of my tables were fun to play at, and I never really faced too many tough decisions!

I didn't get the stones to sit a 6/12 table because I could not afford to lose my stash. I knew I was better than the players at the 3/6 tables, and I felt I would have the most relaxing time doing that. So, I got no stones, but I at least had a nice relaxing time. I did glance at the 6/12's and they did appear to be playing quite soft. One guy I played with at my table said the 10/20 was playing softer than our 3/6. (A table I didn't stay at too long.)

How awesome are the showers at the Borgata?

All of my dealers did a great job IMHO. I really don't understand why so many people rant about dealers, I haven't had a problem with any of them. (Probably only 100 hours B&M though.)

If you can beat a .5/1 on PP, you can beat a 3/6 at Borgata.

I really enjoy B&M play and chatting with the people at my tables. Most of them are just nice people out for a little gamble. There are definitely a fairshare of assholes, but they're fun to laugh at.

I'm not much for creative writing, but those are just a few of my thoughts.

I will be at foxwoods tomorrow if any of you will be there, please respond or pm if you are interested in meeting up.

BeerMoney

[John Deere]

Well put.

I do believe that the 6/12 players are better than the 3/6 players, and significantly better than the 2/4 players.

[AlphaMeridian]

Interesting. I'm going to the borgata (In fact, I'm from near where MisterKing is, in a suburb of Washington D.C) next month and was planning to play the 2/4 w/ a 2 day bankroll of 800. However, if the 2/4 is that bad, then maybe I'll move up to the 3/6? I've been pretty much practising for the last month on party .5/1, slowly trying to raise my bankroll there.

OTOH the reason i'm going ot the borgata is that I"m meeting some friends from another website, some of whom are also here on 2+2 i think, are going to be there, and they're much better players than I am. But is 2/4 is as tight as you say, maybe I'm better off playing w/ them than playing aganist rocks.

-Alpha

[nothumb]

Good post BeerMoney, thanks. My girlfriend has family in NJ so I'm thinking about hitting the Borg next time we visit. Can you compare the Borgata 3/6 with Foxwoods 2/4 or 4/8? I know all are pretty easy but wonder to what degree. Thanks.

NT

[Ralph Wiggum]

It's close to UPenn & Princeton. It's as simple as that. I know plenty of these people, and they study the game before they hit the casino. Geeks pride themselves on knowledge, and even at 2/4 or 3/6 these young adults value their money, since many of them have grown up believing in the importance of saving and investing every cent. So these 'drunk college kids' aren't that drunk are much smarter than your average folk. All these kids prefer the Borgata to the Taj & the Trop, b/c it's the classiest casino in AC, and the other casinos are often below their standards.

Borgata waitresses, oh my. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MisterKing]

That's an interesting theory, and to tell you the truth, in retrospect, I saw AT LEAST 3 or 4 opponents who fit precisely the mold you speak of. These were either college students or recent grads who lives in the region surrounding AC (e.g. south as far as DC, west to Philly, north to NYC). They all knew pot odds, played very few poor starting hands, and generally were NOT there to "gamble." IMO, these are *not* the guys you want to be playing 2/4 against, since there are so many others out there that are less skilled and less focused. I was really, really dissapointed in that by the end of the trip, I had yet to play against more than two opponents who were clearly intoxicated.

Reading the post above about the Trop makes me very curious as to how the competition is in that room. Could be that the upside of the Borgata (nice room, bottled beer, hottie waitresses) draw the people you don't want to play against, and are thus -EV.