KQs on the button

[Barry]

20/40 FW's Same game as "How do you like my seat post?" After the 2 loosies sat down, but before the maniac.

4 Limpers to me and I raise KQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, BB calls, 6 to the flop.

Flop is 766, no /images/graemlins/club.gif's, Checked to me, I check.

Turn is a red K, maybe a flush draw, maybe a full rainbow, I don't remember.

Checked to 1 of the loosies in MP, he bets, tricky LP calls, I think about raising, but just call.

River is a 6, MP, bets out, tricky MP now raises, action to me.

What do you do here, and did not raising the turn put me in this bad situation?

[Zele]

I see no reason not to raise the turn.

As digusting as it sounds, I say just choke down the 2 bets cold. Much more likely to get action from a worse hand that way. No way you can fold here. Not knowing him, I put tricky on medium pocket pair. Who knows what MP has?

[Turning Stone Pro]

I think not betting the flop is what started your difficulties.

1) I bet the flop here. No one has shown any strength, good time to get the gut shot straight draws and overcards out).

2) On the turn, (if you had raised on the flop), I would obviously bet if checked to you, and if you were led into I would probably just call if it was a real solid player, raise if it was anything other than a real solid player.

3) on the river, if you put in the last bet on the turn, then bet again. If you were re-raised on the turn or the solid player bet into you on the turn and you called, call the river.

Good luck,

Joe

[Rushmore]

What the hell are these posters talking about?

Debatable check on the flop.

Debatable call on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do here, and did not raising the turn put me in this bad situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

The river card is GOOD for you, right? What's the problem with the situation? If the guy's got the case 6, you saved a bet on the turn by not raising (assuming you intend to just call the river). If the guy's holding a 7 or any pair 88-QQ, you just induced HIM to raise with the worst hand.

What, were you gonna FOLD on the turn? Maybe a raise would have been the right play. Maybe not.

But failing to do so certainly didn't "put you into this bad situation."

Had the river been an ace, and the same action had taken place, I can see asking the question. But here, I'm not sure I understand your thinking.

I also know that your posts always make sense, and that I don't see the sense here, so I'm worried that maybe I'm missing something.

This wouldn't shock anyone.

[Zele]

If it was HU, then yes, by all means go soft on the turn. Against 2 others, not raising is leaving bets on the table.

[Barry]

On the flop, with all the limpers and a total miss by me I didn't feel that it was right to put in a bet. On the turn the loosie could very well have a 6 and I was content (at the time) to call the turn and river and see if I was any good. I think that the best play would have been to raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet.

The tricky LP could just have a K, so I would have been calling the raise, at best for a 2 way or even 3 way chop, but be subject to a 3 bet by the MP if he really did have the case 6.

[Turning Stone Pro]

I never suggested any type of folding or non-aggressive play. I would have bet it right from the flop, and raised if bet into on the turn against all but the best players.

If a real solid player bet into hero on the turn, I certainly think hero still has the best hand, or is tied. I would just let him keep bluffing at you, and you protect yourself from the very small possibility that you are beat by not coming over the top if he re-raises on the turn.

Joe

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the best play would have been to raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most germane issue, I think.

I don't know how confident you could possibly be in your fold in this position, against this player. It might nag you a bit.

You definitely get a showdown if you go call/call. I know how appealing this gameplan is to everyone here (castor oil, foreign films, the mall...), but that doesn't make it totally wrong.

Or DOES it?

There's something to be said for showdowns when there's this much uncertainty in the air.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey TurningStone,

I think not betting the flop is what started your difficulties.

What difficulties? Call 2 cold on the river. If you weren't folding on the turn (which you definitely weren't) then you shouldn't fold here. 3-betting isn't gaining you anything, so you cold-call. You under-represented, sure, but that just means you should be ready to take a little extra heat later on.

1) I bet the flop here. No one has shown any strength, good time to get the gut shot straight draws and overcards out).

I like the flop check. The fact that nobody bet is not reason to bet it yourself here. It won't help you later in the hand often enough to warrant the bet, you don't care too much about getting overs out except AK or AQ, which are far less likely to be out there than hands you dominate and aren't folding anyway, because you're not winning this pot unimproved or without a showdown, and nobody's folding a gutshot draw get 13:1 on a raggedy rainbow board. Give me some other reasons for betting.

GoT

[Barry]

I've got to head out and will be gone for a few days so...

I cold called the raise, MP now makes it 3 bets, LP folds, and after I finish puking, I call and MP shows 86 /images/graemlins/club.gif for quads.

Does anyone fold to the 3 bet?

[elysium]

hi barry
you must raise the turn to keep your opponents from bluffing on the river, to get the free showdown, and to perhaps pick up the pot on the turn.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
hi barry
you must raise the turn to keep your opponents from bluffing on the river, to get the free showdown, and to perhaps pick up the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would u want to do that? Figuring out whether is actually is a bluff... now that would be useful. Are is that what you mean and I'm misunderstanding...

[ACPlayer]

Hi Barry

Long time since we played together.

Anyway, one comment, in a number of past posts you have made comments like: "i thought about betting (or raising) and then chose to check (or just call)". If this is happening a lot, you may want to ask your self why. Seems like a little weak thinking.

[adios]

Yeah you fold if he 3 bets on the turn. You fairly safely assume one of three things when your opponent comes to life in this situation:

1 - He's slowplaying a big hand.

2 - He's got a King

3 - He's bluffing

To me it's fairly clear that number 1 is more likely than 2 or 3 in this situation.

[Clarkmeister]

Your reasoning is pretty bad. At least you are trying now, that's cool.

[random]

Uh, raise the turn, get a call, and check through on the river on a 766k6 board? The river should be bet if checked to... losing the same amount.

Raise the turn for information? Why? Call down costs two bets (of course not this time with the LP riv raiser). Raising and folding to a three bet costs two bets without the chance to improve and without the chance that KQ was good anyway.

I would have taken the same line as hero.

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi Barry. I think you played it great except you forgot to fold on the river. I'd look at it like this. The flop was checked. That's a buzz kill right there. Then one bet on the turn. This is barely a pot. And on the river, I'd say your chances of getting more than half the pot were very slight. If you agree with that, then add on top that there were ten total cards out against you, it is not so crazy that someone would have quads, especially with all that slowplaying going on. And then factor back in again the likelihood that if you get any of this pot, you get half (or a third), and that the pot isn't even that big, so would it be so crazy to decline to put in two-cold, when you aren't even closing the bidding? Staying in on the river for two-cold on this hand is as if you gave back what you had made so far by moving cautiously.


Tommy

[cpk]

Raising the turn may have gotten you a free showdown, but maybe not. I'm probably raising the turn, though. Anything that helps me avoid being put on the spot on the river is a good thing, because I suck reading hands.

I really want to fold on the river, but I'm going to get pretty aggravated if I see A7 and K9 turned over. 480:80 yields 6:1 to call, keeping in mind that a reraise is possible if the first guy has a six. Unfortunately you have to divide it in two because tricky guy may also have a king. So now you're down to 240:80. You're still probably good more than one time in four, so a cold call isn't totally stupid, but the math leans toward folding. I admit that I have a hard time folding here, but I'm getting better at it.

[cpk]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I bet the flop here. No one has shown any strength, good time to get the gut shot straight draws and overcards out).


[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on the game. Where I play, people are addicted to check-raising. The trouble is that sometimes they have jacks---, and sometimes they have you crushed. Especially when the blinds do it--that's really freaking annoying. Suddenly you've paid two bets for a hand that is essentially a draw.

It's really a lot of trouble to be doing it with a pair on the board. You might be drawing to perfect perfect, as our hero was. It's quite stupid to put 6x the big blind in the pot with a hand that may need perfect-perfect to win.

Further, I think you might have missed the fact that 6 people saw the flop. In these sorts of games, you gotta show the best hand. KQ will be zilch if it doesn't improve. Time to take the free card. There's no reason to panic and try to win the pot right away, because (a) you can't do it anyway, and (b) the game is loose enough that you really can wait for the nuts.

The second biggest error one can make in poker is failing to adapt to game conditions.

[Turning Stone Pro]

there were alot of people in the hand. but, i would certainly not get too aggressive on the turn if you hit the K, because of the possibility of slowplayed trips.

i think my way of playing the hand might have alleviated the problem that Tommy mentioned. that is, having to call two cold on the river.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn may have gotten you a free showdown, but maybe not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does everyone want a free showdown?

I'm a fan of raise the turn, bet the river if checked to. I think more often then not you'll have the best hand. I think you can also decently safely fold to a 3 bet on the turn.

Given how you did play it, I would call 2 cold and no, i woul,nd't fold to the 3 bet even though I'd hate having to call it.