Q10s, too aggressive here?

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Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

4 calls, blinds likely to come along, this seems like a raise.

Flop: (14 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Should I have just called here, to let the checkers keep on? I thought some would probably call two cold and I might get a free card if needed.

Turn: (12 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls $4 (All-In), UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Is this just a call? With so many callers and the extra outs, I thought it might be a raise.

River: (20 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Hmm. Haven't made a draw yet today, getting a little cranky.

Final Pot: 21 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 20 BB, between BB and MP1.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP1.</font>

I'm taking a bit of a hit this morning, many from bad beats and missed draws but probably also leaking a bit. All comments appreciated.

NT

[submariner]

I would have just called preflop, and the turn. I consider QTs a drawing hand, especially with an EP and MP limper. But I'm still working on the right level of aggression applied at the right times, so I don't know if thats right.

[huxbux]

I don't necessarily question your preflop raise to build the pot so people will stay in if you get a flop to your liking, but I wouldn't have raised on the flop or turn. With hands that have outs I check/call, unless I think I can knock out the players who might draw out on me. With so many players in the pot, the pot size, and the loose nature of microlimit games, a call would have been the bettor play I think.

[tardigrade]

Since I'm on a drawing hand that won't make the nuts, I just limp in pf. I like the flop raise to set the pot right to draw out on and get a free card (or not). I call the turn, fold the river, and feel good I didn't drop much money on it.

[nothumb]

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I consider QTs a drawing hand, especially with an EP and MP limper

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Sure, of course, especially given the flop. But there are times when raising a draw is perfectly correct. Wondering if this is one of them (the turn in particular).

NT

[RED_RAIN]

I'm sorry but I think this is one was misplayed nearly everywhere.

Preflop - Just call, you think you have the best hand? You think this is a monster hand to have against many people? Answers = no.

Flop - Why did you raise? This is a missed concept, where you killed a lot of chances to probably pick up more money if you do hit. When MP1 bets, you want everyone to call one instead of raising so they are now faced with calling 2 cold.
Turn - Wow? What are you thinking here? Still on a draw yet you want to push people AGAIN?!?! Are you away you are also now going to be building a side pot with a hand of nothing?
River - Well at least you didn't raise him here.

You should search for the thread about raising draws.
Also work on preflop raising conditions.

These are the type of hands that for sure not helping your cause.

[nothumb]

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With hands that have outs I check/call, unless I think I can knock out the players who might draw out on me.

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This is loony. You are trying to draw out on the other players, not the reverse. Sometimes you check/call hoping to hit, and sometimes you have enough callers to raise for value.

Having so many players in the pot and having loose callers makes a raise better (not bettor, BTW). In fact, it's what makes it correct. This flop is an automatic raise I believe.

NT

[chief444]

PF raise looks ok to me from the button. Flop raise I think is a must. Flush draw + backdoor straight + overcard I am definitely raising here. Turn raise is marginal but I don't think too bad. You have 15 outs which should all be clean and can probably count on at least two callers. If raising here gains you an extra bet or two on the river by disguising your draw when you do catch it turns it into a +EV play. River...oh well. Better luck next time.

[Greg J]

The preflop raise depends on the table. If people are limping in with total garbage, I say punish them. especially when you have position! Respectfully, I disagree with you guys that dont like the preflop raise in and of itself. It all depends on who you are playing.

I absolutely LOVE the raise on the flop. Unfortunately it didnt' get you your free card on the turn /images/graemlins/frown.gif Still, great play!

I disagree with the turn raise. I might be wrong, but i don't think you are getting the odds for a value bet here.

I think overall this hand was pretty well played. Keep it up, and those draws will start hitting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nothumb]

Red,

Thanks. Was waiting for someone to correct me using good logic. I thought the flop was ok because the early players were very loose and very likely to call. Don't know if I made that read prominent enough, can it ever be a good play with such a read?

Pre-flop was thinking of some situation from a 2+2 book where J10s (of diamonds, even!) is raised for value after 4 limpers. I think it's in the hand-reading section of HPFAP. I guess that 1-gap makes a big difference. Definitely didn't think I had the best hand here.

Thanks for advice, I'm definitely LAG from late position.

NT

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but I think this is one was misplayed nearly everywhere.



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I will agree on this.

Especially your flop raise. You are on a draw and it sure would be nice to continue this hand with alot of callers.

Ok so you tried for a free card, but you didnt get it and yet you raise again on the turn while still on a non nut draw. Hell you could be drawing dead here to BB or MP2 with Ax of diamonds.

This hand should have been -2 BB for you

[Greg J]

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Flop - Why did you raise? This is a missed concept, where you killed a lot of chances to probably pick up more money if you do hit. When MP1 bets, you want everyone to call one instead of raising so they are now faced with calling 2 cold.

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I understand your point here Rain, but I like the raise here because it will often get you a "free" card. Are you are recommending slowplaying a drawing hand, and one which is not the nuts at that?

I might be missing something here. If so feel free to put me in line. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
Red,

Thanks. Was waiting for someone to correct me using good logic. I thought the flop was ok because the early players were very loose and very likely to call. Don't know if I made that read prominent enough, can it ever be a good play with such a read?

Pre-flop was thinking of some situation from a 2+2 book where J10s (of diamonds, even!) is raised for value after 4 limpers. I think it's in the hand-reading section of HPFAP. I guess that 1-gap makes a big difference. Definitely didn't think I had the best hand here.

Thanks for advice, I'm definitely LAG from late position.

NT

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There is a difference between loose and super loose. I figure people calling 2 cold is super loose. If this table is loose, I can count on everyone calling MP1's bet. If I hit the turn, now is the good part, if anyone bets in front of MP1, I can raise or 3 bet, thus lots of money, if checked to MP1, now I can raise trapping MP2, and make anyone else call 2 cold and probably drawing very very slim against me. That's why in my opinion it's not a good raise on the flop. Let's say that the SB bet out and everyone called, then I'd raise for sure. The difference is where the bet is, what my position is to that bet, and how to get the most money from your draw. Calling 2 cold has to be one of the worst moves ever in poker, so rarely is it correct, that's another reason why I wouldn't think just cause someone is loose they will call 2 on the flop cold.

Your reading is right, prehaps if I had a loose table that is going to limp a lot of hands with no raise preflop, with this amount of limpers I would raise JTs. JTs is a lot stronger than than QTs. That's the reason it says raise.

[chief444]

Red Rain,

I think the pf raise and turn raise are both marginal but certainly not as obvious of mistakes as you are making them out to be. QTs is no monster but I think usually will have more than it's share of pot equity with this many limpers. I may just call the turn but as I pointed out in my other post there is some added deception to the raise that will often gain you an extra bet or two on the river because they will never expect you to be on a draw and this may turn a slightly -EV play (with 15 outs and 2 callers) into a +EV play. Without picking up the OESD the turn raise would clearly be a mistake.

I think the flop raise is the right decision. You certainly don't mind if you fold out someone with a better Q. With just the flush draw and no backdoor straight or overcard I may just call but I think this is a clear raise here.

[RED_RAIN]

Please read my above post and the reasoning and why in the long run this type of play is better to call than raise cause of reasons stated.

[RED_RAIN]

chief444,

Flop: Think of it like this, 7 limpers to the flop, hmm this table is loose. We PFR'ed so now people are little more tied to the flop. MP1 bets out, MP2 calls. Now it's to us with 4 more to act behind. We raise, let's just say only MP1 and MP2 calls (often will happen when people look at 2 cold and after a preflop raise then a raise on the flop by the PFRer). Now on turn a diamond comes, checked to us, we bet, call by, we'll dream both, now river, both call.

So we get a total from flop - river (not including preflop) = 6 BBs profit.

Option 2:
MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 of the 4 others call (I'm being very nice, very likely 3 or all call for one SB).
On turn a diamond comes, checked to MP1, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, we raise, we'll say that 1 caller of 2 cold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls. Now river comes, checked to us, we bet, we get 1 caller (nice again).
Outcome: 9 BBs (I feel this number is low since often the hand will go better than this, often someone will bet out into the turn as a bluff without the flush before MP1 and likely that MP2 might call river, also the fact usually more than just 2 of the 4 to call the bet on the flop would call, and perhaps even some of the turn raise for 2 cold)

Not sure this is the best way to show, but I'm pretty sure of the logic behind this.