Raising when you think you've counterfeited two pair

[scrub]

I've started raising in situations like this when the running pair doesn't coordinate well with the board and the flop has a coordinated two pair on it (two paint or a connector).

Does this look right or does it seem over the top?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Scrub is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Scrub raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB <font color="purple">(Other_Guy)</font> calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Other_Guy checks, <font color="CC3333">Scrub bets</font>, Button calls, Other_Guy calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Other_Guy checks, <font color="CC3333">Scrub bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $13 (All-In)</font>, <font color="CC3333">Other_Guy raises</font>, Scrub calls.

River: (10 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Other_Guy bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Scrub raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Other_Guy 3-bets</font>, Scrub calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 8.60 BB, between Scrub, Button and Other_Guy.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Other_Guy (8.60 BB).</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 7.40 BB, between Scrub and Other_Guy.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Other_Guy (7.40 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Scrub shows Ad Ah (two pair, aces and twos).
Button shows 6c Jc (one pair, twos).
Other_Guy shows 2d Tc (full house, twos full of tens).
Outcome: Other_Guy wins 16 BB. </font>

scrub

[Peter_rus]

I usually do this thing - i like your 3-betting.

[samdash]

I like this play if you can lay down to a 3 bet on the river.

[scrub]

That's what bothered me about it, and also why I posted one where I got burned.

Thanks for the reply!

scrub

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what bothered me about it, and also why I posted one where I got burned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's necessary at all to fold to a 3-bet. having raised PF, he knows you probably don't have a 2, and you have to have exactly AA to have just rivered him. if he's good at reading hands he might put you on AA, but a guy with KT will 3-bet often enough to make it necessary to call the river.

[scrub]

If it's a fold, and I'm still on the fence about it, it's certainly read/notes dependent.

I can think of players who I would not fold to in this situation, and I can think of players who I would not raise the river against in the first place.

scrub

[samdash]

Put yourself in the other persons shoes. The way that scrub just called the turn and then raised the river almost looks like he was slowplaying top set and is now filled up. I have played AA like this before and merely been CALLED by a small fullhouse when I raise the river. It is very hard to make this laydown since AA is such a powerful hand on this board. But if you review the action and combine it with the fearless river 3 bet on the other players part I think this is a full house every time. Against certain players you have to make the call but if you really think about what someone would have to be thinking to 3 bet without a full house here...

[scrub]

I've definitely been burned folding an overpair in this situation before after using that logic, though.

I'm note sure which is right, but I'm pretty sure it's close in EV against clowns. If it was easy to fold to the 3-bet, or if the 3-bet was a bluff often enough, I'm sure that the original raise is profitable. It's the gray area that the weirdos in these games create that makes me wonder.

scrub

[samdash]

Against a "clown" I think 4 betting is better than folding. But it seems like 95% of the players in these games play very straightforward. Basically, if your read of 2 pair on the turn is accurate, the board pairing is going to fill them up some of the time. They 3 bet the times that it does and call the times it does not.

[scrub]

I think maybe I'm using being hasty to use "clown" then.

I agree that most of the people in these games play straightforwardly (occasional weird turn raises aside), but I think they play so poorly that it is often a mistake to make a fold based on the assumption that the other player is thinking about what I have.

I frequently get WAY too much action from sets, two pair, and overpairs when the board and line of the hand makes it pretty easy to tell that I can beat those hands. At least at 5/10, I think it might be a mistake to assume that the guy with two pair always understands the consequences of the running pair.

scrub

[tripdad]

good play. i have done this more often recently with good success. as an added benefit, it puts the villain who flopped 2-pair on tilt quite frequently. too bad in this case you got beaten, but you made what is usually the correct assumption that villain had the KT IMO.

as an asside, NEVER steal raise the donator who defended his blind with the "Doyle". /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

cheers!

[Nick B.]

Raise the river, think about capping but just call the three bet. What is the question here?

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Put yourself in the other persons shoes. The way that scrub just called the turn and then raised the river almost looks like he was slowplaying top set and is now filled up. I have played AA like this before and merely been CALLED by a small fullhouse when I raise the river. It is very hard to make this laydown since AA is such a powerful hand on this board. But if you review the action and combine it with the fearless river 3 bet on the other players part I think this is a full house every time. Against certain players you have to make the call but if you really think about what someone would have to be thinking to 3 bet without a full house here...

[/ QUOTE ]

What games are you playing that opponents are putting you on hands? Most opponents are thinking, hey I have a king and the 2's just paired, TWO PAIR!!! If you are thinking about folding to a three bet you are crazy. Especially on a straightless and flushless board. If you can put your opponent on a set or two pair including a 2 on the turn, then you are a much better hand reader than me.