He's Out Teammate, We Don't Care What He's Done

[andyfox]

Re Barry Bonds:

http://sports.excite.com/news/06252004/v7189.html

Here's what Matt Herges said:

"He's our teammate and we support him 100 percent," closer Matt Herges said Thursday. "The ultimate goal is to get to the World Series and win it, and we're not going to let it affect us."

Similar to what the Lakers say about Kobe Bryant. We don't care if Bonds cheated, or if Kobe raped a girl, he's our teammate and if he can lead us to a championship, we won't let anything else affect us.

What's wrong with this picture?

[bingledork]

Two things:

1) Neither Barry or Kobe have been convicted of anything. I think they are entitled to due process.

2) Talk is cheap, and this guy gave the standard cliche response. It would be a mistake for any player on the team to publicly rip into his teammate.

I think it's obvious that Barry is on steriods, but if I were his teammate, I wouldn't publicly insist he be banned. Plus Barry isn't the only player on drugs. The whole MLB has a drug problem.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with this picture?

[/ QUOTE ]


It's all too human?


Andy, read some Mark Twain. It may help - Not with the underlying problems but with the understanding of them. Humor helps keep us sane. Its the only solace that can.


Besides, the Giants will not win, much less get to, a WS.


-Zeno

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with this picture?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing, Herges is his teamate, he said the right thing. It is not proven that Bonds took steroids, but I will concede it is likely. However, whether or not he took them, one thing is certain, Bonds is the face of the Steroid scandal. He will be scrutinized and attacked more than anyone else in the league. So I think thats what Herges was responding to.

[andyfox]

His Autobiography is my favorite. And the travel writing. Not that Huckleberry Finn is chopped liver.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

My favorite is "Letters From the Earth"

[daryn]

by the way what's up with bonds saying he would never play in boston because it's a "racist city"?

then today i heard on the radio he made a comment about how he's sick of people he doesn't know accusing him of things when they don't even know him.

by the way bonds has never even been to boston.

hmmmmmm...

[andyfox]

I know what Herges said is partly political, but when does the fact that someone is a teammate less important than what he does? I heard the L.A. chief of police on the radio this morning. There was an incident here earlier this week where a suspect was apparently beaten with a flashlight by a cop. (There is a thread on this forum about it.) He didn't say "he's one of us, our only goal is keep the city safe and we're not going to be distracted by this." He said it looks bad, he's going to be available to the public do discuss the relevant issues and both the victim and they're going to do their best to do the right thing.

[ThaSaltCracka]

andy,
I see what your saying, but there is a big difference betweem an athlete supposedly taking a performance enhancing drug and having to defend himself, and a police officer beating someone. Police officers are in posistions of authority, they are suppose to protect us, not beat us.

[B-Man]

It's sick--reminds me of the jury letting O.J. walk (though sports is obviously insignificant compared to murder, it just made me think of O.J.).

[B-Man]

This shows that, in addition to being a liar and a cheater, Bonds is a hypocrite.

He's also probably more racist than most of the people in Boston (and most people in the U.S.).

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
by the way bonds has never even been to boston.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never played there? or never traveled there? or both?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
He's also probably more racist than most of the people in Boston (and most people in the U.S.).


[/ QUOTE ]
You guys wanna know how racist Bonds is? Get a load of this.... he married a white chick!!! Can you [censored] believe that!! How close minded, how racist, that gaw damn biggot, I can't believe he would EVER do something like that. Not in America!!!! I won't stand for this blatant racism!!!!

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Get a load of this.... he married a white chick!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you think this proves he is not a racist, and his comments about wanting to knock Babe Ruth out of the record books, because he was white, but leave Hank Aaron on top, don't say anything about the way he thinks.

We think differently.

[B-Man]

Never travelled to Boston (let alone played there).

[David Steele]

Besides, the Giants will not win, much less get to, a WS.

This is a serious error in your judgment.

As for the Andy's point, the important thing is SF beating
the Dodgers as many times as possible, the end defintely does justifty the means for this particular end.

D.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Never travelled to Boston (let alone played there).

[/ QUOTE ] I had no idea, thanks for clarifying. Maybe his dad had a bad experience there. I know Everett didn't have very many nice things to say about the fans in Boston either.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
and his comments about wanting to knock Babe Ruth out of the record books, because he was white, but leave Hank Aaron on top, don't say anything about the way he thinks.


[/ QUOTE ]
I am not sure if this proves he is racist.

rac·ism
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

You tell me?

I do know that there is a lot of institutional racism in sports. You don't see many minority coaches, GM's, or owners, so perhaps Bonds would take some pride in seeing three African Americans in the top 4 in HR totals.

[B-Man]

Bonds said his impression was based on things he had heard from some older players (I think Willie Mays).

As for Carl Everett... there's a reliable source! The man is insane... there's a reason he has been traded so many times, and it isn't because he's such a great player.

(out of curiosity, what did Everett say?)

Maybe you should ask Pedro, or David Ortiz, what they think about Boston. Or Troy Brown, or Mo Vaughn, who wanted to be traded back to the Red Sox and still lives in the area.

Boston certainly has some well-documented racial incidents in its past, but that doesn't mean it is a racist town today. I don't think events from 30-40 years ago have much relevance today, and I don't think someone that has never even been to the town (Bonds) should be spouting off about it. At least Carl Everett, crazy as he is, has actually been to Boston.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and his comments about wanting to knock Babe Ruth out of the record books, because he was white, but leave Hank Aaron on top, don't say anything about the way he thinks.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am not sure if this proves he is racist.


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't prove he is racist, just as the overwhelming circumstantial evidence doesn't prove he took steroids. You are free to believe as you wish. I happen to believe he is a racist.

[ QUOTE ]
I do know that there is a lot of institutional racism in sports. You don't see many minority coaches, GM's, or owners,

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't a lot of white running backs or (especially) cornerbacks in the NFL, does that mean the NFL is racist against whites?

[DougBrennan]

Thoughts on your post from the perspective of a long-time Giant's fan:

I have been religiously following the Giants, and baseball for the better part of 45 years now, and the whole Bonds/baseball/steroids conundrum has me in a quandry. First, I see the same things everyone else does and it seems to me likely that Bonds has used steroids (steroids serving as a generic term for all illegal or quasi-legal growth supplements). His body development and almost unheard of production at his age seem to not be possible otherwise. Second, it seems equally obvious that LOTS of other athletes in lots of other sports have taken similar substances. Third, this is America, and one is innocent until proven guilty, Kobe Bryant as well as Barry Bonds as well as Marion Jones as well as et. al.

I also think it is to be expected that teammates will, at least for public consumption, feel the way Herges does. There is a unifying, "we band of brothers" bonding among many with shared endeavors, and I think athletes in particular have been moved in this direction their whole lives.

Now, having said all that, the following is also true, for me at least. Teammates' support of Bonds bothers me less than than similar support of Bryant, to be honest. And I am not, cannot be sure if my feelings are due to the lesser nature of Bonds' alleged infraction when compared to Bryants', or due to my devotion to the Giants (mature though I hope that devotion is.) And that is my quandry.

I cannot tell how much my reaction to these types of situations is based on obtective reasoning, and how much is based on fandom. I want to be able to judge Bonds and Bryant and others equally, to the extent that I ought to judge them at all, but I'll never know.

In a perfect world, I suppose our "heroes" would never put us in such situations, but alas, we are stuck being human.

And for those of you who have lashed out at Bonds for his Boston racism and other remarks, I do not blame you, but know you this: Bonds, for whatever reason, will always supply you with such ammunition. We locals who take great pleasure from his performances know to just ignore his remarks, because they are sure to be erratic, contradictory, and inflammatory at one time or another.

Well Andy, apparently you pushed a button of mine /images/graemlins/laugh.gif, but it's a button life installed, not you.

Doug

[andyfox]

Whatever button it was, it was a good one: very good, very thoughtful post.

Certainly Bonds' infraction, if indeed he has used steroids, is of a less serious nature than Kobe's, if indeed Kobe did rape the woman. And it's also natural to want to give our own hero more of the benefit of the doubt than somebody else's. So I don't think you should be at all perplexed by your feelings.

I'm just wondering on where one draws the line. Herges says, basically, that winning he world series is more important than whether or not Bonds cheats. Kobe's teammates here in L.A. say it's more important to win the championship than whether or not he raped somebody.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
As for Carl Everett... there's a reliable source! The man is insane... there's a reason he has been traded so many times, and it isn't because he's such a great player.

(out of curiosity, what did Everett say?)

[/ QUOTE ]
Let mew clarify, I can't find the quote, but he said along the lines that its hard to win in Boston because the media is constantly hounding/criticizing the teams. My mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should ask Pedro, or David Ortiz, what they think about Boston. Or Troy Brown, or Mo Vaughn, who wanted to be traded back to the Red Sox and still lives in the area.

[/ QUOTE ] I guess you could probably ask Nomar and Manny too while your at it, they seem to love playing for the Red Sox.

[ QUOTE ]
Boston certainly has some well-documented racial incidents in its past, but that doesn't mean it is a racist town today. I don't think events from 30-40 years ago have much relevance today,

[/ QUOTE ] I agree

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't prove he is racist, just as the overwhelming circumstantial evidence doesn't prove he took steroids.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't a lot of white running backs or (especially) cornerbacks in the NFL, does that mean the NFL is racist against whites?

[/ QUOTE ] This is easily the dumbest thing you have ever said on here. There aren't many white people playing those posistions in the NFL because there aren't many that play them in college, because they simply aren't good enough. A better analogy would have been asking why there are so few black starting quaterbacks in the NFL, or why there are so few black head coaches in the NFL. White males get plenty of opportunities to succed and excel in sports, the simple fact that blacks make up a majority of the NBA and the NFL simply illustrates that they are better natural athletes. Don't you find it interesting that there are so many blacks playing football and so few coaching?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't many white people playing those posistions in the NFL because there aren't many that play them in college, because they simply aren't good enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't many black people that are head coaches in the NFL because there aren't many that are head coaches in college, because they simply aren't good enough.

(thats your logic, not mine)

By the way, the NFL bends over backwards to get minority head coaches, forcing every team to interview a minority (perhaps every team should be forced to let a white guy try out to be the starting running back?). As there are more and more black coordinators and assistants, you will see more and more black head coaches in the future.

The dumbest thing you have ever said on this board was suggesting that the NFL was racist because it doesn't have any black owners. How many blacks have tried to buy an NFL team? How many have made the highest bid?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you could probably ask Nomar and Manny too while your at it, they seem to love playing for the Red Sox.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but Nomar has repeatedly stated that he wants to stay in Boston (many do not believe him), and though Manny asked to be traded after last season, this season he has been a model citizen, and he said he loves playing for the Red Sox. The fans treat him very well--I sit 5 rows from the field in left field, and I can tell you that the fans overwhelmingly LOVE Manny, much more so than any left fielder we have had in a very long time.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
The dumbest thing you have ever said on this board was suggesting that the NFL was racist because it doesn't have any black owners.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said this. I said, there are very few MINORITY owners and GM's in baseball. I never said anything about there being none in the NFL.

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't many black people that are head coaches in the NFL because there aren't many that are head coaches in college, because they simply aren't good enough.


[/ QUOTE ]
There are actually quite a few in college, and one in particular at a school with a storied football tradition, in Ty Willingham at ND. There are however very few black head coaches at major southern schools.

[ QUOTE ]
As there are more and more black coordinators and assistants, you will see more and more black head coaches in the future.


[/ QUOTE ] I think your right with this, I would agree, however I am sure there are plently of qualifed candidates out there.

[ QUOTE ]
(perhaps every team should be forced to let a white guy try out to be the starting running back?).

[/ QUOTE ]
again, another absurd statement.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(perhaps every team should be forced to let a white guy try out to be the starting running back?).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


again, another absurd statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is absurd, but no more absurd then forcing teams to grant token interviews to minorities for head coaching vacancies.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is absurd, but no more absurd then forcing teams to grant token interviews to minorities for head coaching vacancies.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the only way they will have any legitimate chance to get the job though. As I said earlier, there is definitely institutionalized racism in sports, especially in the management/coaching level. Indeed, I think some of the interviews are simply token interviews, but that simply shows how ridiculous it is. Pro teams are more likely to hire a successful white college coach then a successful black NFL assistant coach. Slowly things are changing in sports, but the racism is still there.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Read this article, you might find it interesting.
Bonds in Boston (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/06/18/blasting_zone/)

[DougBrennan]

Jeez, I spill my guts and still you want your question answered?

I suppose it depends a lot on perspective. And something else just occurred to me. Had the Lakers won (God I loved typing that phrase), it would not have had any causal relationship to Kobe's case. That is, whether or not he raped the woman gave neither he nor his teammates any advantage over the Pistons.

So while whether Bryant did it or not carries great weight in how I regard him as a person, it bears no relationship to the success of the Lakers.

Bonds and steroids is another issue. I cannot argue that the issue of Bonds' steroid use does not bear a perhaps significant relationship to the success of the Giants. The only factor that lessens the gravity of his perhaps soiled contribution is this: I'm gonna guess that no baseball team in the last 10 years has won the World Series without someone on the team being on steroids. Also, up until last year, I'm not even sure that baseball had any rules governing steroid or supplement use. I could be way wrong on that, I just don't know.

I personally could live with the fact that the Giants, in the unlikely event that they win a Series this year or next, may have done so with an artificially enhanced Bonds. But it does taint it just a little, just as the suspicion taints some of Bonds' otherwise formidable statictics.

From the perspective of the teammates, I can readily agree with Herges. Sure it's more important to him to win the Series than to deal with possible steroid use by a teammate, and I can even buy it from Kobe's mates. They have a much greater stake in the outcome of their respective teams than they do in a teammate's reputation.

I seem to have made a logic based arguement in support of Herges' remarks, and yet they still grate, don't they? Maybe the arena of sports is not capable of encompassing the reality of the world in a meaningful, understandable way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to leave all the above in my post, but believe me, I'm aware it may all be crap. On the one hand it makes sense to me, on the other, it's an awful lot of blather about some pretty inconsequential remarks by some players who would almost certainly rather have their deeds disected than their words.

Andy, my personal bottom line is this--any action by an athlete which physically harms another person begins to take on great significance, even in relation to his team and/or his personal accomplishments. O.J. is the most obvious example. I cannot think of him, or his records, or even just his talent, in an untainted way, even though all his accomplishments were achieved prior to his (clear throat) alleged act of murder.

But for an athlete to perhaps break some rules to improve his performance skills, particularly in a sport that has a nudge and a wink relationship with spitballs among other things, well, that just does not stain in the same way as does violence.

But every one is free to draw their own bottom line.

Doug

I swear, my next post will contain no more than 25 words, use two smilies, and be sarcastic.