too aggressive?

[riverboatking]

i had been raising a lot of pots and taking them down uncontested on the flop and so my table image was pretty aggressive. with that in mind i thought that my big raise on the flop might induce and all in. i also didn't want a hand like AQ or AJ to see another club on the turn and get away from there hand by thinking that my smooth call on the flop indicated a flush draw. any thoughts?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB (t1650)
UTG (t1115)
UTG+1 (t2110)
MP1 (t1725)
MP2 (t575)
Hero (t1485)
CO (t1175)
Button (t910)
SB (t2100)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t60</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t180</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t165, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t120.

Flop: (t570) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t930
<font color="green">Main Pot: t660 (t660), won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t270 (t270), returned to Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Hero wins t930. </font>

[gcDanno]

Did you win? You made a bet of 1/2 the pot, and they folded. Be happy! I would say anytime you win a pot equal to 1/4 of your stack I would be very happy. Well done.

gc

[AStrauss]

Yes, be happy. Also by the looks of it, although you might have received an aggressive reputaion, your chip count doesn't indicate that you have been taking down so many pots uncontested. I think this was a great hand, but you may have also just been lucky. I'd like to have seen some of the other hands you played in this tourney.

[MLG]

Yes and no. I like calling here and then betting raising the turn. There is really no downside. If they check to you and then you bet and they fold you win the same amount, and I can't really see giving a cheap turn card as a problem. Hey, maybe he has the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif and you'll pick up a huge pot if a club hits. There's nothing wrong with your play per se, but I think you could at least have the possibility of a bigger pot with very little risk.

[Pat Southern]

I like just calling here. You really shouldn't be afraid of any card in the deck. You have TPTK and the nut flush draw. With your position you can raise the turn if he bets big, or continue to let him bet into you. If he checks then you can bet, and it may look like a steal instead of a good hand.

[woodguy]

gcDanno is right, any win is a good win, especially if it increases your stack 25%.
A good NL player will win many small pots and 1 big pot per hour (in tourney's it can be around 2 big pots per hour, given that your opponent is not betting their own cash)
Trying to milk this pot may cause ruin.
UTG+1 open raised, so they have a little something, if its a small pair and turn gives the set and no flush for you what do you do then? Or even worse, they make the straight flush? (I have laid down open ended straight flushes due to the high price of the next card, and poor odds)
Keep building your stack until you KNOW you can milk a pot with a made hand.
Good play.
Regards,
woodguy

[MLG]

There are lots of good reasons to be afraid of giving a free card, a two-outer isn't one of them. If you want to shut the guy out of the pot because you are afraid he might hit his set or straight flush I would like to know what hands you think are ok for milking in order to get a double up? This idea of playing super conservatively in excellent situations because a better oppurtunity might come along later is severely overrated. There is no guarentee that a better oppurtunity to get more chips will come along later. This is the perfect oppurtunity to milk for more chips.

[digdeep]

In hindsight it appears that you may have been too aggressive, what was your motivation in raising? Were you trying to extract more money out of the bettor and the caller, or were you trying to force them to fold (all while upholding your table image)? If you were trying to extract more money (which may have been correct with the quality of your hand) a raise 10x what the initial bet may have been overly aggressive. With your aggressive image, a bet 3x - 5x the initial bet may have induced calls, as you could have made a larger bet on the turn or river, depending on what cards fell. With that said - you won a big pot which means it could not have been that bad of a play.

[woodguy]

TPTK with the nut flush draw on the flop can deteriorate in strength a few different ways on the turn and river. My examples of what he could make with his draw are a little extreme, but valid.
I think hitting a set with no flush or straight draw on the flop or hitting the nut straight on the flop are easier to milk without having too many scare cards in the deck.
TPTK w/ nut flush draw is ok to milk in limit, but in no limit I like to take it down quickly.
I just may be more conservative than you.
regards,
woodguy

[MLG]

Here's the thing though, that raise is a textbook example of only getting called when you're beaten. The only hands that call there are sets and made flushes (possibly 2 pair). Now granted your not in awful shape against those hands (7 or 8 outs) but raising accomplishes nothing except shutting out hands which are drawing very slim (keep in mind many PPs are drawing to 1 out). A call or small raise not intended to drive the bettor out are much better plays. I don't think its a stylistic difference I think the large raise is a clear mistake. Its also a mistake to get hung-up on how much the pot increases your stack size at this point. While at times that is a valid consideration, at this point your concern should be how much more can I get, and what is the risk involved.

[woodguy]

I agree.
300 only gets called by VERY good hands, whereas 100ish might get a high flush draw to call.
I get hung up on questions like these because I had the leak of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrom), and since I reverted to more straightforward strategy, I have improved.
I just don't like to milk pots without stronger hands than TPTK, although his nut flush draw on that boards does ask to be milked.
regards,
woodguy

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing though, that raise is a textbook example of only getting called when you're beaten. The only hands that call there are sets and made flushes (possibly 2 pair). Now granted your not in awful shape against those hands (7 or 8 outs) but raising accomplishes nothing except shutting out hands which are drawing very slim (keep in mind many PPs are drawing to 1 out). A call or small raise not intended to drive the bettor out are much better plays. I don't think its a stylistic difference I think the large raise is a clear mistake. Its also a mistake to get hung-up on how much the pot increases your stack size at this point. While at times that is a valid consideration, at this point your concern should be how much more can I get, and what is the risk involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree here. There is absolutely no reason to raise so much here. I think the smooth call looks a little suspish, too, though..for psych reasons.
I think a funky little 3x his bet (T90) is better. He raised preflop, so its his obligation to raise on the flop when an Ace hits, right. A raise looks like a naked AK/AQ. A smooth call looks like AA or Kc.
You have to think one of them is going to call the small raise, thus tying them more to the pot. Hopefully they have the Tc or Jc and think its good when you check behind on the turn when a club hits.
I don't mind tying them to the pot when they likely have less than 4 outs and I'm drawing to the nuts.

[MLG]

what a shock...we agree, maybe once could we pick a fight about something...please. It would absolutely liven up my day at work.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
what a shock...we agree, maybe once could we pick a fight about something...please. It would absolutely liven up my day at work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your name is stoopid.

[riverboatking]

i want to thank all of you for your insights, i really appreciate it. in hindsight i have to agree with MLG and Sossman, this was a good situation to try and milk. in fact the reason i raised so big was to try and make it look like a steal. my hope was to get all the money in on the flop w/ two cards to come because at that point i really can't be too afraid of anyhand. what i didn't want was to play a big pot on the turn if a blank came and now i only have one card left. i wasn't too upset at taking down the pot on the flop, and my reason for posting was to see what strategy you guys would have used on that flop. like i said i really wanted to give the impression that i was trying to buy the pot right there, becuase in my experience many people view oversized raises ie: 10x the bet as weakness because they figure no one would really bet a good hand that strong. and although i only had TPTK at that point, because i had the nut flush draw and there was a raise and reraise preflop there aren't too many hands i was scared of so my raise wasn't designed to protect my hand. i'll take my chances against a one or two outer, what i was really trying to do was play on psychological factors.
regards.

[MushashiAce]

Alright,. I agree with raising your high pair/kicker flush draw after his minimum bet. However, betting 300 is alittle strong, think of the possible hands others could have. Your going to get a call with pocket A's, 9's, or 6's, and you'd be in bad shape, having risked essentially a quarter/ third of your remaining stack just to push out hands that would have folded for less. Also, someone with any clud draw is not going to call that bet, but if you raised for less before the turn, then someone who paired and had a flush draw, or just a high flush draw mihgt play, cause your raise appears to be more of a test then an actual push. Finally, for a 300 raise, any hand that has you beat is going to call, and any hand you have beat is going to fold, bottom line. This isn't like normally protecting top pair from a flush draw, cause A) it's a dangerous enough flop for you where your hand can be beat 70% or more with certain, and very playable, hands, and b) your flush draw is the best on the board, and this coul;d give you room on the turn to draw one more bet out beofre pushing. Bottom line, I would have split that 300 bet between the flop and turn rounds, if that, cause your oppurtunity to grab more chips was outweighed by the amount you were betting, at that point, either someone had you beat, or you had them beat essentially.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
10x the bet as weakness because they figure no one would really bet a good hand that strong. and although i only had TPTK at that point, because i had the nut flush draw and there was a raise and reraise preflop there aren't too many hands i was scared of so my raise wasn't designed to protect my hand. i'll take my chances against a one or two outer, what i was really trying to do was play on psychological factors

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting...this keeps coming up and I think I'm going to make a post out of it one of these days when I have my thoughts together.

I think you have to mix the psych factor w/ the math part too, though. Let's face it, sometimes you *know* the guy is full of sh!t, but the bet is just too much risk to play sherrif. If you make the bet slightly smaller, you will get more "curiosity" calls.

later.

[patrick dicaprio]

i am not sure how much more you want to win! this isnt a pot that will bust someone unless they already have a flush on the flop and a fourth club comes. honestly i probably would have pushed on the flop and hoped that i got called.

Pat