Lastest England 2 Portugal 2

[superleeds]

and we've been cheated once

Lampard 114

[Ulysses]

Equalized!!!!!!!! Was worried this one would somehow be disallowed too.

[superleeds]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif God I hate penalties /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Cyrus]

The disallowed goal was correctly disallowed. An England player had his arm around the keeper and prevented him inside his area from reaching the ball. This used to be looked upon with benign neglect in football (and, especially, in British football) but not-any-more!

To understand how far things have changed in the game, in this respect, you can compare the above foul with the David Webb aerial-tackle-cum-header that equalized the game in the 1970 Chelsea-Leeds FA Cup Final.

England is out because Rooney got injured and because they are simply incapable to shoot a decent penalty. The whole bunch of the first five England penalties in the shootout was atrocious! Truly horrible. The takers were simply banging away hard without any marksmanship. (If the Portuguese goalkeeper had done any homework, he could have saved a lot more. He obviously had not.)

As to Wayne Rooney, he got injured in a small incident that got bad because of the boy's weight. His foot got under the Portuguese player's by accident but Rooney's weight turned what should have been a scratch into a more serious thing. If Rooney had stayed on, the Portuguese would not have the counter-attack as easily as they had. Well, watch it so that the man does not become another bloated "wasted talent" like Gazza became.

...I don't get it. This is, what? the fourth or fifth time that they go out in the shootout phase in a major tournament?? I have lost score. Doesn't the England manager know this? Isn't he supposed to, you know, train them a bit more in that particular activity? Prepare them technically as well as mentally?

It appears that in the case of Beckham, at least, Sven had done nothing of the sort.

--Cyrus

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
The disallowed goal was correctly disallowed. An England player had his arm around the keeper and prevented him inside his area from reaching the ball. This used to be looked upon with benign neglect in football (and, especially, in British football) but not-any-more!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. The England Player (Lampard I think) was just standing his ground. The keeper as he was rising to attempt to get the ball got tangled in his left arm but was not fouled, Lampard was not exertibg pressure on his shoulder to force him away from the ball. It's not obstruction because he is not stopping the keeper from getting the ball when making no attempt to get the ball himself. It was a perfectly good goal.

[ QUOTE ]
To understand how far things have changed in the game, in this respect, you can compare the above foul with the David Webb aerial-tackle-cum-header that equalized the game in the 1970 Chelsea-Leeds FA Cup Final.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why I am obviously biased things have gone to far. You can't get near a keeper now without it being a foul should the keeper screw up. They are too overprotected.

[ QUOTE ]
England is out because Rooney got injured and because they are simply incapable to shoot a decent penalty. The whole bunch of the first five England penalties in the shootout was atrocious! Truly horrible. The takers were simply banging away hard without any marksmanship. (If the Portuguese goalkeeper had done any homework, he could have saved a lot more. He obviously had not.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus, the Rooney injury was a blow but not catastrophic. I don't think you understand Penelties, apart from Beckhams and Vessels they were fine. If they go in they are good penalties if the keeper doesn't have to make a save they are crap. As simple as that. As for keepers doing their homework it can help with their initial guess as to which direction the taker might strike the ball but that is all. He either guesses right or he guesses wrong. I agree a top footballer should always be able to score a penalty and 9 times out of 10 they will but they are far from perfect.

[ QUOTE ]
As to Wayne Rooney, he got injured in a small incident that got bad because of the boy's weight. His foot got under the Portuguese player's by accident but Rooney's weight turned what should have been a scratch into a more serious thing. If Rooney had stayed on, the Portuguese would not have the counter-attack as easily as they had. Well, watch it so that the man does not become another bloated "wasted talent" like Gazza became.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a joke right?

[ QUOTE ]
...I don't get it. This is, what? the fourth or fifth time that they go out in the shootout phase in a major tournament?? I have lost score. Doesn't the England manager know this? Isn't he supposed to, you know, train them a bit more in that particular activity? Prepare them technically as well as mentally?

[/ QUOTE ]

Their shootouts, a lot of luck is involved in penalties, the difference between the players abilities from 12 yards is miniscule.
England lost because of a bad referring decision and because they are not as good as most of England believe. Portugal are a better side (as are France, Holland, Spain and Italy) but on any given day they can beat any side, they did not deserve to lose yesterday and they played very well but Portugal could equally claim they played as well if not better and deserved the victory.

[ QUOTE ]
It appears that in the case of Beckham, at least, Sven had done nothing of the sort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beckham is one of the best players and ball strikers in the world. SGE could have not trained or said anything to him to make him a better penalty shooter. He just f*%ked up.

England are a good side but until they can string more than 6 passes together without losing possesion or just lobbing it up front they will be nothing more. The way football is structured in the UK from grassroots to the professional level it may be a while before the simple act of passing a round object to someone wearing the same colours becomes as second nature as England failing to go all the way in a major championship.

[tyfromm]

[ QUOTE ]
Beckham is one of the best players and ball strikers in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks,

Beckham Rules!

[superleeds]

No probs but stop Fuking up.

PS Leeds is a beautiful city I'm sure Victoria would love it and the schools are superb just in case your getting bored of Madrid

[nicky g]

It was Terry. I think it's true he probably wasn't exerting pressure but it did look a lot like he had his arm round the goal keeper while Campbell was just heading it in. Certainly there was no way for the keeper to get to the ball, and Terry wasn;t on the ball. Given that wasn't teh intention and it had more to do with the way the keeper came up, I think on balance it should have been allowed, but it was a close decision and the way it's being portrayed over here as if the referee just disallowed it for the hell and that there was absolutely no question it was a goal is absurd. That said the referee was awful throughout - but again, I do think this one was a closer decision than is being made out.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
but it did look a lot like he had his arm round the goal keeper

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange to be penalised for a show of affection.

Anyway, I'm not interested anymore in the post-mortem, all I can say is Bugger, Bugger, Fxxk, Fxxk.

I'm fed up

[Cyrus]

"It was a perfectly good goal."

When you get a chance to see it again, more calmly, and preferably from the camera behind the net, perhaps you will see that there is obstruction. Until then, we will simply disagree.

"Things have gone too far. You can't get near a keeper now without it being a foul should the keeper screw up. They are too overprotected."

The major change has to do with fouling on the pitch, not on the keeper. Since FIFA started promoting more severe refereeing, we are seeing definitely better football and more skills. The keeper is still pretty much protected as he used to be, maybe a little more now. But the major change is that players like Zidane can show off their talents without fearing "Chopper" Harris ending their career with a tackle from behind.

"The Rooney injury was a blow but not catastrophic."

I don't see any other player I the squad that is capable of the things Rooney is. If the fat lad was still in, the Portuguese back would not have that free room in front of their area. So, yes, maybe it wasn't "catastrophic", but is was a blow.

"I don't think you understand Penalties. Apart from Beckham's and Vessels they were fine."

No, three of them went straight where the goalkeeper stood. If the keeper had not dived, he would have caught them. This is NOT how a penalty is supposed to be taken. This is the Rudi Neeskens way and it is not the percentage way.

"If [the penalties] go in they are good penalties, if the keeper doesn't have to make a save they are crap. As simple as that."

I'm afraid this is results-guided thinking instead of percentages-guided thinking. Listen : A good penalty is a penalty that manages to do at least one of these things : (a) make the keeper dive the wrong way (b) hit the side of the net or (c) hit the upper corner of the net.

The England penalties looked good because the Portuguese keeper kept falling (see 'a' above) when he shouldn't.

"Watch it so that [Rooney] does not become another bloated "wasted talent" like Gazza became. <- This is a joke right?"

No joke. I was a Gazza acolyte. How heavy must Rooney get before you realize that the weight is catastrophic? This is not the Puskas era, you know. Weight is the downfall for footballers when so much running is required. (And skilful players cannot apply their skills when they are out of breath.)

"[In] these shootouts, a lot of luck is involved in penalties; the difference between the players abilities from 12 yards is miniscule."

I disagree. England have lost in shootouts in the last four or five major tournaments they were involved! This is called a pattern. Something is wrong - and needs fixing. My opinion is the coach should've taken this psychological burden of past shootout losses off the players' minds - and have them practice for God's sake.

PENALTY SHOOTOUTS ARE LIKE FOOTBALLERS PLAYING A ROUND OF TENNIS AFTER THE FOOTBALL GAME! It's a whole different ball game (excuse the pun) but also a crucial part of today's game. I'm continually surprised at coaches who don't pay the required attention to it.

You think Sven had his players practice penalty kicks? I would bet not - he would probably consider this as too pessimistic.

As to Beckham's penalties (that have cost England dearly once more), the less said the better.

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
When you get a chance to see it again, more calmly, and preferably from the camera behind the net, perhaps you will see that there is obstruction. Until then, we will simply disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure when I will see it again. But Terry is standing under the ball. No way is this obstruction. The foul was given for him pushing the keeper. It was wrong. I doubt their will be an until then /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The major change has to do with fouling on the pitch, not on the keeper. Since FIFA started promoting more severe refereeing, we are seeing definitely better football and more skills. The keeper is still pretty much protected as he used to be, maybe a little more now. But the major change is that players like Zidane can show off their talents without fearing "Chopper" Harris ending their career with a tackle from behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree outlawing the tackle from behind has been a major benefit to the game but the protection of goalkeepers is just getting ludicrous, any fan or player will argue this with you.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see any other player I the squad that is capable of the things Rooney is

[/ QUOTE ]

He's good but not the finished article. You have seen Henry, Van Nilstroy and even Shearer play? England have 3 world class players - Becks, Scholes and Ferdinand. Rooney will hopefully join their ranks but as yet he is not, as far as I'm concerned he had a spectacular tournament and the jury is still out. I remember the same hyperbole over Owen when he scored against the Argies (not to mention Barnes) and he has failed to deliver on the grandest stages.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid this is results-guided thinking instead of percentages-guided thinking. Listen : A good penalty is a penalty that manages to do at least one of these things : (a) make the keeper dive the wrong way (b) hit the side of the net or (c) hit the upper corner of the net.

The England penalties looked good because the Portuguese keeper kept falling (see 'a' above) when he shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

a - only if it goes in
b - the back or side (as long as it the inside) of the net
c - actually bottom corner is just as good.

Whos being results orientated? If James dives the opposite ways to which he did he would have had a good chance of saving at least 3. (I guess the Portuguese are just excellent foolers with their fancy run ups)

[ QUOTE ]
No joke. I was a Gazza acolyte. How heavy must Rooney get before you realize that the weight is catastrophic? This is not the Puskas era, you know. Weight is the downfall for footballers when so much running is required. (And skilful players cannot apply their skills when they are out of breath.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Gazza had his problems but even so he was still one of the greatest footballers ever. Would he have been the same player if his demons had been suppressed? I doubt it. They are people not machines. I don't read the British papers often (and when I do it is only for sport) but I'm unaware that Rooney has a weight problem. He's a big lad yes but being able to run at 100mph for 90 minutes is not the be all and end all of football, control is what matters.

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. England have lost in shootouts in the last four or five major tournaments they were involved! This is called a pattern. Something is wrong - and needs fixing. My opinion is the coach should've taken this psychological burden of past shootout losses off the players' minds - and have them practice for God's sake.

PENALTY SHOOTOUTS ARE LIKE FOOTBALLERS PLAYING A ROUND OF TENNIS AFTER THE FOOTBALL GAME! It's a whole different ball game (excuse the pun) but also a crucial part of today's game. I'm continually surprised at coaches who don't pay the required attention to it.

You think Sven had his players practice penalty kicks? I would bet not - he would probably consider this as too pessimistic.

As to Beckham's penalties (that have cost England dearly once more), the less said the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

They pratice.

[Cyrus]

"The protection of goalkeepers is just getting ludicrous, any fan or player will argue this with you."

I doubt that. The keeper was always protected inside the small area (he is not supposed to be challenged inside it - and that's official, that's what the small area is for).

FIFA eliminated some "keeper privileges", such as grabbing the ball after a back pass. (And keepers now get immediately sent off for handling outside the area.) This is complimented by a little more keepr protection. The package of new guidelines as a whole makes for more plays away from the keeper! This is the opposite of the old-style British game (lobbing the ball close to the goal and have your bulky centre forwards lurch for a header, elbows flying) and it helps create more enjoyable plays.

"[Wayne Rooney] is good but not the finished article."

I agree, of course. But I insist "I don't see any other player I the squad that is capable of the things Rooney is". I'm not referring to skill or world-class abilities, but his role as someone who keeps both the center and the opposite back four honest. Someone who can roll the ball forward from the center and thus create opportunities for runners.

"I remember the same hyperbole over Owen when he scored against the Argies (not to mention Barnes) and he has failed to deliver on the grandest stages."

Barnes, I believe has delivered. (The Barnes story is a drama in itself, BTW.) As to Owen, I think he is burned out from too many games. Which is the major point you should have brought up about England's defeat. The star players simply had too many matches in their bodies when that tournament started.

Becks the heaviest weight of all. Remember Real Madrid's fiasco of a "world tour" last summer, right after Beckham joined the squad? The man has not rested for the last 12 months! You can't expect world class performances from your world class players when they are utterly exhausted (Beckham) or just plain fat (Rooney, very shortly).

"Who's being results orientated?"

You. Except for Beckham's, would you want the England players next time to strike their penalties the way they did against Portugal? Wouldn't you rather have them shoot with the calm confidence and the skilful placement of the Portuguese? (That slowly-rolling one was a marvel. Reminded me of the Czech Panenka's classic.)

"They practice."

Yeah, at wanking. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[pudley4]

Check this:

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/sport/2004/06/25/annullering_pano.jpg

(best picture I could find)

[Cptkernow]

Yes, but the Keeper jumps INTO Terry and gets his arm stuck.
This is the critical point. If Terry had jumperd into the keeper the issue is different.

I am a qualified referee, this goal should have stood.

[adios]

I love this thread, seriously. Soccer needs what American football has I guess, allowing the referee to review certain calls with a video tape replay. Then they could have gotten the "no conclusive evidence to overturn the ruling on the field" call /images/graemlins/smile.gif. The super star choked on a penalty kick, England had their chances.

[Martin Aigner]

Not sure whether this was already mentioned, but in super slow motion one could see that the ball started moving towards the goal right before Beck hit the ball. These few centimeters might have made all the difference between hitting the goal or shooting 5 km above it.

BTW: What´s your favourite right now? I´d put my money at the czechs.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt that. The keeper was always protected inside the small area (he is not supposed to be challenged inside it - and that's official, that's what the small area is for).

[/ QUOTE ]

Rubbish. It's so he knows where to take goal kicks.

[ QUOTE ]
As to Owen, I think he is burned out from too many games. Which is the major point you should have brought up about England's defeat. The star players simply had too many matches in their bodies when that tournament started.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a major problem with the England game.

[ QUOTE ]
(That slowly-rolling one was a marvel.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if James had just stood still the Portuguese player would have looked a complete c&*t

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, at wanking.

[/ QUOTE ]

With their money, they get in experts to help them out. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[superleeds]

I was speaking to my father an hour after the game and all of a sudden he said "Jeez, you won't believe what's just landed in the garden".

"What" says I

"The ball from Beckhams penalty" he replys