When a 3x raise just isn't enough...

[britspin]

I've tried to follow the good advice here on making standard 3x BB raises in NL tournaments when the blinds are significant (I'd do 2.7x, but I'm no Fossilman!).

The issue seems to be that at my low buy in MTT level (typically $5/$10) this doesn't seem to be enough to prevent callers on a full table. This is especially true during rebuy periods.

Now, I'm happy about this because I'm usually ahead at this point vs. the callers individually but unless I'm holding AA/KK/AK I often seem to get beat.

For example, I lose with overcards when holding LP QQ/JJ/AQs/AJs. Typical examples? Q10X flop with AQ. Q10 in SB. JJ On QXX flop... Q7 on button.

I decided that this was OK because I would win in the long run vs poorer hands like this.

Then I noticed I was often losing a turn bet and even a river bet against these hands. Yet when I'm winning I generally just pick up the preflop calls. So I began to wonder about my EV from the raises.

So with an LP raise with AQ on blinds of 200 and a stack of 4000, I'll typically pick up 1200 or lose most of my stack. The cost of the latter seems to outweight the advantage of the former.

All of which leaves me puzzled at where I'm going wrong.

I'd appreciate advice from players here- also below are my thoughts- Am I even asking myself the right questions?

1. Am I playing JJ/AJs/AQs hands in LP too early in the tourney? Should tighten up further and wait until we're down to the players who will fold to a 3xraise? If so, how to deal with being shortstacked?

2. The corrollory of the 3x BB calls seems to be that a 5x or 10x BB bet will often get called during the first 4 levels - even 20xBB at the 20/40 level usually gets a call- and freguently players are all in on flop.

Would I be getting extra value by betting my few big hands ultra high and staying out of everything else until the table propensity to call falls dramatically?

[gcDanno]

I never cease to be amazed at the bets/calls my opponents make in the early rounds of any tourney (rebuy or regular). I love it when one opponent raises a 10/20 blind to $740, and he gets calls from AJo or 33!!! For this reason, in the early rounds, I never raise 3x unless I want multiple opponents (I have a flush/str8 drawing hand). If I want 1 caller, then I make it much larger depending on how tight/loose the table is playing.

gc

[MLG]

I'm hesitant to give any generalized advice without having a better understanding of how you play post flop (how much you bet do you bet every street those types of things). Personally I like to make standard preflop plays during the rebuy period, and then if I hit pretty well (TPTK) over bet pots. You would be shocked at the draws people call with (and if their gonna call anyway might as well overbet to make them put a lot of chips in). However, if you get called on the flop and turn, I generally shut down on the river and check behind callers. Additionally beware the opponent who calls overbets without an obvious draw on the board (usually means they hit a hand in my experience). All of this advice, however, may be moot without knowing a little more about how you play. One other thing to keep in mind, drawing hands are more important when the blinds are low in comparison to stack size, and big card hands become more dangerous precisely for the reasons you mentioned, so loosening up and playing Ax suited or suited connectors, or small pocket pairs if you can see the flop cheaply (even form EP) can frequently pay big dividends.

[MLG]

I really disagree with this philosophy. If you play this way you invest a very large portion if your chips without really knowing where you are in the hand, and increase the chances of only playing against better hands. For example, if you make the huge raise with A-Q you will fold hands like A-J that you want to play with you, and be stuck facing only premium hands that have you beat like AK, and 1010 and up. If everybody folds congrats you just risked like 200 chips to win 30.

[MAxx]

Here is how I look at it, and I admit that I have probably less than 25 small entry fee rebuy tourney's on stars.

In the begining, I want to try and keep the pot small with hands that are very good but hands that you would not consider premium. The perfect example is AQo: I will gladly open raise with it, but the raises will be near the minium raise. If someone gets crazy on me, I do not have a problem dropping it. Now when I get a premium hand such as AA or KK, watchout the chips are going in. I believe that in the first couple of stages of rebuy tourneys (perhaps just the cheap ones), you are going to get calls at just about any bet increment. You are playing against some superloose gamblers, that have no discipline in the early stages. So when I get the premium pps i will bet 500t to 1500t at the 20/40 limits and fully expect to get callers at certain tables. I have a big edge here, and I am will to risk getting unlucky here. The other day in a $3 rebuy I got KK on the second hand and bet 500t... several callers. Ace fell on flop and there was action, so I had to toss the cowboys. The 4th hand I got AA, and bet 1,000t. I could not believe it, but I got 7 callers. Well the AA didnt hold up. It does not matter... most of the time these guys are going to feed me chips early on.

[davidross]

I think this requires an attitude adjustment on your part early in the tournament. When the blinds are small, ur going to win small, and hopefully only lose small too. Remember, you are only trying to win 30T with a raise when blinds are 10/20. It seems pretty silly to bet 100 or so to win 30 with a hnad like AQo.

Instead of adjusting your pre-flop raise, change your post-flop play. Slow down when overcrds hit, and when facing a big raise for all your chips, with only top pair, and blinds low, fold.

You can't win the tournament early, you can only lose it.

[Colby818]

David's post on this is perfect. I usually use the early phase in the tournament to start determining how large a raise I'm going to need to make to take down a pot. The beauty of hold'em is you don't even need to be the one playing the pot to recognize this stuff. If 3x won't take it down, you may need to go to 5x. As David said, I'm not really going to look at 10x early, it just makes you play a large pot that is half yours. Remembering pot odds 101, you are trying to play for a larger portion of their money than yours.

Once you start to determine how large a raise it's going to take to take down a pot, then you can decide which hands you want to take it down right now with and which hands you want some action with. Obviously that varies depending on your stack relative to others, but sometimes you want people along for the ride. But, once your stack starts to shrink, you need to start finding out how big a bet to make to take down the blinds or even a limper.

Myself, I will usually make a bigger raise early with TT-QQ(along the lines of 5x) in an effort to take down the pot or isolate. Small pairs and drawing hands, I'm usually looking for people to come in on, because I want to be able to hammer someone if I hit my draw and I'm content to drop out if I don't. AA and KK depend on where my stack is. If I'm low, I might just try to take down some blind. If not, I may 'just' do the 3x raise and hope I get some callers.

It is definitely my experience in those lower limit tourneys though that you generally need to expect to have 3-4 people on all of your early flops. Sometimes even more.

[paland]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't win the tournament early, you can only lose it.

[/ QUOTE ]
How true.

[SossMan]

I think you should still make the 3x bet and adjust your postflop play accordingly. 5x is just too much to win the blinds early.

[SossMan]

A couple of months ago, I posted a thread called "has 3x turned into 4x?"

There was a pretty good discussion about it. You can do a search for it.

(sorry, I don't know how to post the link)

-SossMan

[familyteeth]

i've been saving all fossilmans posts in Word, here's Sossman's discussion and foss' take on it

Has 3x become 4x?
3x bb always has been the "standard" preflop open raise for many players.
I find that I get too many callers w/ 3x. I'm talking about hands that would just as soon take the blinds as see a flop or face an all in reraise. AQ,AJ,88-JJ, etc...

How much is everyone else's "standard" raise?

Not in my world. I just don't feel it's worth risking 4x to win 1.5x. If I raise 3x with AK or a decent pair, and they call me with mediocre hands like AT, KJ, or 44, so be it. I expect to win more than I lose postflop anyway, and even more so when I start with the best hand.

In fact, I like to raise somewhat less than 3x. For example, when the blinds are 50,100 on Pokerstars, I usually raise to 280. It works just as well as 300, and saves me 20 when it doesn't work out so well.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[SossMan]

thanks, familyteeth.