HPFAP: Playing in loose games

[Joe826]

One of the subsections of this chapter talks about situations where you wouldn't raise with good hands when playing with bad players because if you do raise you would be giving them better odds to draw out on you and they aren't making as bad of a mistake since the pot is bigger. I think the example of AQo on the button after four limpers is used. Does anyone NOT raise this situation? I routinely raise here and feel like i'm giving up too much money preflop if I don't. Not that the idea doesn't have any validity, I just wonder how much it's practiced? What do you guys think of it?

[Ed Miller]

You should continue raising in that spot. The advice in the Loose Games section applies to loose players who play very well after the flop (as you might find in an $80-$160 game). Loose players who just play poorly should be raised.

[Michael Davis]

Yesterday I was in a family pot on the BB with AQo. I raised.

Raise every time.

-Michael

[TripleH68]

I am more willing to limp in with AQo on the button in this situation if one or two of the limpers is loose/aggressive. Why slow these players down early? Consider the possibilities with no raise...

1) If you miss the flop entirely you can get out cheaply. Since the game is loose you figure with four limpers you are in a tough spot from the get go.
2) Let's say you do hit the flop. It is likely someone else will bet it for you. Now you have the chance to sit on a raise and have not given your hand away.

If you had raised pre-flop...
1) Everyone will likely call the raise.
2) If you hit the flop they may check it to you, reducing your profit on later streets. Or you can get someone slowplaying a set on you!
3) Agreed if the flop/turn get dicey at least you have a bigger pot to make a run at...

So I mix it up, but lean toward limping more often. It feels more comfortable in the 3-6, 5-10 games I play.

[Joe826]

That's cool, but if these players play very well post flop why are they chasing with bottom pair in an unraised pot in the first place? Anyways, thanks for clearing that up.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

If you had raised pre-flop...
1) Everyone will likely call the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you have the best hand pre-flop (which you likely do) then having everyone call you is what you want.
it also allows you the possiblity of TAKING the pot (or limiting the field) even if you miss your flop or are just on some sort of draw.

raising here means you are taking control of the hand.

you have the best hand...don't get cute, take charge....if everyone is limping, you have to raise raise raise. without question.

[Ed Miller]

That's cool, but if these players play very well post flop why are they chasing with bottom pair in an unraised pot in the first place? Anyways, thanks for clearing that up.

It is often correct to bet a hand like middle or bottom pair in an unraised pot because you figure to have the best hand often enough. It's wrong if someone else has top pair AND YOU KNOW IT, but you don't know it, so betting is "correct" play, but an FTOP error.

Does that make sense?

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
You should continue raising in that spot. The advice in the Loose Games section applies to loose players who play very well after the flop (as you might find in an $80-$160 game). Loose players who just play poorly should be raised.

[/ QUOTE ]



Ed - here is what it says in the intro to the loose-games section....what am i missing here?


"today there are many new players participating, resulting in much losser games. it is not uncommon, even at higher limits, to find many players who not only play too many hands, but go too far with their hands. These games, USUALLY at the lower limits, are referred to as no-fold'em hold'em."

"this being the case, we have added an explanded "loose games" section in the 21st century edition of HEFAP."

[John Tesh]

I don't agree in this case. With many other loose players and many other calls as a result, ONE of them is more likely to get lucky on the flop. If it were one-on-one or one-on-two, your odds are good. If you have four limpers, this is four chances to beat you if they call. Bet it low, get them to call, play for the flop like them and get out cheap if you must.

[MicroBob]

i loved your album btw!!


if more players stay in against me when i have AA then that means there is a greater chance my hand won't hold up as well (which has been happening to me too frequently lately...arrrgh....52o catching trips??)....when you have AA, KK, AK, QQ against a field of limpers you will win less frequently against a field of 6 limpers but will win more money in the long run.
personally, i'm more concerned with how much money i win then how my win-hand %.


fwiw, against a field of limpers on the button, i would also raise AJo, KQo, TT and probably even 99 for the same reasons. you have likely the best hand PF, you want to get more money into the pot in situations like this, you have position, and you also take control of the hand to a certain extent (table dependent).


why on earth would you not want to raise when you have the best hand?? against typical opponents, it's about maximizing the wins.

[Ed Miller]

Ed - here is what it says in the intro to the loose-games section....what am i missing here?


"today there are many new players participating, resulting in much losser games. it is not uncommon, even at higher limits, to find many players who not only play too many hands, but go too far with their hands. These games, USUALLY at the lower limits, are referred to as no-fold'em hold'em."

"this being the case, we have added an explanded "loose games" section in the 21st century edition of HEFAP."

I understand that it says that in HPFAP. Mason, David, and I have discussed this (obviously germane) issue many times recently, and the official line is what I said earlier in this thread.

[MicroBob]

that is VERY interesting....and i think does a much better job of explaining some of the strategy differences that exist between parts of HEFAP and some of the generally accepted ideas in the ML and SS forums (by some of the wiser ones such as yourself, dynasty, others).


has this 'revelation' about the loose-games section been mentioned previously in the forums??

oh well.....i'm off to pre-order my copy of your book.

[TripleH68]

I have found in the low limit games I play, in practice, that a pre-flop raise on the button is given a lot of respect. But the play post-flop is poor from these players. They will call you down at the least and implicit collusion will kill you. Good luck trying to get "all" of these players to lay down on a bluff. I have raised AK, bet it strong and been beaten by a pair of fives. So the raise in this spot is almost always only to build the pot. That is my point.

[MicroBob]

i'm happy to JUST build a pot with this hand as well.
if it's bet in front of me when i missed the flop then i likely have odds to call 1 bet and try to draw to my 6-outer.

i just have issues with those who would rather limp along with everyone else on the button with AQo.
i thought it was generally understood that you should happily and optimistically be getting aggressive here.

[Ed Miller]

has this 'revelation' about the loose-games section been mentioned previously in the forums??

Yes, I believe I alone have said it several times. I think David and Mason may have said it once or twice as well.

oh well.....i'm off to pre-order my copy of your book.

Sweet! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Michael Davis]

Just because you raise with AK does not mean you have to pound it postflop. In large multiway pots, your hand often becomes a drawing hand after the flop and other times is worth a fold. You're still going to have to bet at a flop like 443, but you're undoubtedly taking this too far and playing poorly postflop.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

"i just have issues with those who would rather limp along with everyone else on the button with AQo.
i thought it was generally understood that you should happily and optimistically be getting aggressive here."

Thank God it is not, especially outside of 2+2. But failing to raise here is a bad mistake.

-Michael

[Joe826]

Yeah that makes total sense, the chapter is just a little unclear. I've only read it once though.

[Pokergod]

I quite often, in loose games, will limp with a big ace in hopes of raising on the flop and driving out a lot of the folks drawing with gutshots and small pairs.

Thing is, if you're in late position, and you raise pre-flop, everyone almost always will check the flop to you. You bet out of course, and they sometimes all call. It can be good, if you win the hand, but very often there are too many fish "schooling" and one of them "gets there".

It depends greatly on the game your in at that time.

-PG

[ddubois]

I lost a huge pot that involved me raising about 5 limpers from the BB with KK. Someone who flopped bottom pair (something 85s) called me down, catching runner-runner for a flush. He then said it was my fault, because by raising pre-flop, I built the pot giving him good reason to chase his 5 to ~7 outs. I'm pretty sure he's was just a moron, but his comments did remind me of that passage from HEPFAP. (And made me realize I should have check-raised that flop rather than led out.)

[Pokergod]

I play in a lot of very loose, very aggressive 15-30 HE games, and I see it all the time. I can't deal with the variance of seeing my top pair top kicker getting run down time after time, over and over.

I had to change my style of play, for my own peace of mind, and learn to keep the pots smaller early on and then charge them an extra bet to go on past the flop.

These people aren't stupid, they know pot odds, and if the odds are at all close they're all drawing. ALL OF THEM!

You know the feeling you have when you flop Ah9h6s, you're on the button with AKo, and everyone checks to you, you bet and 5 people call? Well imagine that feeling in nearly every hand. Maybe I'm running extremely bad or something, but I like to raise on the flop and thin the field (a lot more than I used to). The right game conditions have to be there.

-PG

[Joe826]

As Microbob already explained, I think you shouldn't be concerned about winning each individual pot. The point is, you have the best hand preflop. You're profiting big time before the flop by raising your hand. Yeah you might get sucked out on (although by not raising you allow my junk in to hit a hand on the flop) since you increase the pot size, but in the long run the pots you do win will be bigger.. and you'll win more than your fair share.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
You know the feeling you have when you flop Ah9h6s, you're on the button with AKo, and everyone checks to you, you bet and 5 people call?

[/ QUOTE ]

i know that feeling very well.
i love that feeling.
i wish i could have that feeling on every hand.
the circumstances that lead to that feeling are beginning to make me a rich man (relatively speaking).


why are you so bothered with your AK getting called?
so you've got a bunch of players with 2nd pair or straight or flush draws calling you.

you might get drawn-out by someone. but i'll gladly take my chances in that situation. heck, that's why i played AK in the first place.

even if you win these less than half the time, your opponents are giving you 5:1 on your single bet.
hooray for you!!!!

[TripleH68]

This is definitely game dependent and debatable. But I get your point. Four or five to one on AQo with position is a pretty nice way to start a hand...

[Richard Berg]

Joe, MicroBob -- he didn't say raising was incorrect, he said he couldn't handle the swings. He would obviously maximize his EV by learning yoga and raising anyway, but EV isn't everything to everyone. There are plenty of mathematically-sound theories of gambling (Kelly criteria, etc.) that take people's feelings into account.

[BaronVonCP]

[ QUOTE ]
That's cool, but if these players play very well post flop why are they chasing with bottom pair in an unraised pot in the first place? Anyways, thanks for clearing that up.

[/ QUOTE ]

They won't. That's why its suggested that you don't raise. So they won't chase. I play against players that will chase regardless of pot size. Therefor i raise.