Down to 3 players, AK in SB. I am one of two short stacks...

[Jwasnock]

$50 PP NLHE SNG. 3 Left, blinds are 100-200.

Hero SB (700)
BB (8975)
MP (325)

I get AK in SB, MP folds - what should I do. I was really torn weather to call, raise or fold. At this point, MP and I are basically playing for 2nd place and most of his chips will be in the pot blind in the next 2 hands, but do you lay down AK in this spot? I already had $100 in the pot with $600 left if I fold. If MP wins his all in on his blind, we are back to even. If I double up, I virtually assure myself 2nd, but risk going out 3rd. What would you do here? Thanks, as always.

[PITTM]

i would push to give myself a chance at winning, since that should be your main goal. Its worth the risk, the big stack might not even call, and if he does, you probably have the better hand. Once you win, or just take the blinds, you'll be in prime postition.

rj

[fnurt]

If the short stack doubles up in the BB next hand you'll be way too close to him in chips for comfort. Your best chance to assure yourself of 2nd is probably to go for it here.

If the guy had 50 chips or something then yeah, I could see folding your way up a spot.

[jslag]

That is an easy push. Don't play for 2nd place, play for 1st. You are almost always the favorite against the chip leader here, unless he's holding a pocket pair. In fact if the chip leader is a good player, he'll probably realize that you wouldn't risk pushing all your chips in from the SB at this point unless you had a hand.

If the short stack doubles up in his BB, then you could be left with much colder cards when you're in the blinds next time around. You're in the money... if you don't push in situations like this you will end up making a post later in this forum titled "Why do I always get 3rd place?"...

Would you push with 77 or 88 here? If you would, then you should push with AK too, your chances are nearly identical.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif jslag /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Losing all]

I agree with everyone's advice about pushing here because it gives you the best chance to seal MP's fate. I also understand the rationale behind the 1st or 3rd strategy, but telling someone they need to play for first here is just silly.

The difference between $100 and $150 should be big enough not to take wild risks in situations like this as an all or nothing (granted ak isn't a wild risk). Let's not get carried away with concepts just because we read them here all the time. Everything has a time and a place.

[Jwasnock]

I decided to just call here, hoping to see a flop for cheap, but willing to call if he raised or push. If no raise and no A or K on the flop, I would check/fold, leaving me enough chips to still be ahead of the other short stack. If A or K hit, I push. My thought here was that even if I win here, I am going to be outchipped 1400 to 8600 or so, so why take the all in risk, if I don't have to. I realize there is a slight chance I buy the blinds, but I figure he's calling with almost any two at this point.

RESULTS: I called, he raised, I called. He showed A6, my AK held up. He took out the other SS on the next hand and I got whooped heads up for 2nd place.

What do you think of my thought process above with the AK?

[Jugador]

I don't like it. Like most have said, this is definitely a push situation PF. At 700 chips, you are putting in 200 with just a call. Leaving you with 500, only 2.5x the BB. This leaves hitting your hand as the only way of winning.

Pushing PF gives you two chances to win, BB either folds, or you beat his hand on the table. AK is the type of hand that is great for all-in since you get all 5 cards. And will hit A or K a fair amount of time.

Other then a pocket pair, there isn't a better hand I'd like to have in this situation.

Easy Push.

[AJo Go All In]

i hate it.

what you need to understand is that the BB is going to move in on you a large percentage of the time for a few reaosns: 1) he assumes you would have raised if you had any sort of hand 2) he assumes that you will fold because of the pay structure implications.

the way you played it you are effectively seeking a race situation for all your chips and in all likelihood a 30-40% chance of going out in 3rd. of course, your chips will go in with the best of it the large portion of the time, so chip EV wise you likely made the best move, which does not necessarily have any bearing on the actual correct move in this situation. but you asked about your thought process. it's poor. it sounds like you think that your play reduced your risk/variance. it actually increased it because you didn't even give the big stack a chance to fold. i'm not sure why you think the big stack will call with any 2, he has no interest in knocking you out, in fact you could argue that it's to his advantage to keep you in because he can steal both of your blinds because you both want to get to 2nd.

also another big issue is if the big stack happens to let you see a flop and then outflops you. this is a disaster that you should not allow to happen. play for first. 3rd is not that much different from 2nd. you can come back from a 8000-2000 disadvantage very easily. one double up and a blind steal and you are there are already.

[jslag]

[ QUOTE ]

The difference between $100 and $150 should be big enough not to take wild risks in situations like this as an all or nothing (granted ak isn't a wild risk). Let's not get carried away with concepts just because we read them here all the time. Everything has a time and a place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I was getting carried away by saying play for 1st, not for 2nd. It applies heavily here, if he is going to fold AK in this situation or just call, you can see that he isn't making the most of it. You said yourself it's not a wild risk with AK. I'm not telling the guy to push with JTs here, there is a difference, clearly.

Why is it silly to tell someone to be aggressive in this situation? I'm not trying to promote a playing attitude of "Don't think, just push, play for 1st!". It's just a part of the thinking process. Mucking or playing AK in a weak manner here is asking to get pushed around in these tournaments and having a lot of 3rd place finishes. Period.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everyone's advice about pushing here because it gives you the best chance to seal MP's fate. I also understand the rationale behind the 1st or 3rd strategy, but telling someone they need to play for first here is just silly.

The difference between $100 and $150 should be big enough not to take wild risks in situations like this as an all or nothing (granted ak isn't a wild risk). Let's not get carried away with concepts just because we read them here all the time. Everything has a time and a place.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the kind of smart thinking that doesn't always make its way into every player's thought process. The point is that going for 1st vs. assuring yourself 2nd is a BALANCING PROCESS. You have to weigh the risks and the rewards. Saying "I always play to win" may look good on your business card, but if you're not going to at least pretend to take a rational approach to the game, why bother reading these forums?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Saying "I always play to win" may look good on your business card, but if you're not going to at least pretend to take a rational approach to the game, why bother reading these forums?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha. i think thi has to be a push, especially if the payout is 20/30/50.

would you push here if this were a satellite that payed two seats? i think then i'd fold.

[aces_full]

This is an all-in or fold situation. There's no in between. Personally if the short stack has 200 chips or less, I would pass and guarantee myself second before worrying about trying to win. The reason being if he has 200 or less left, he's all in on the next hand with any two cards. With 325 chips, he can fold and still have enough chips to play the SB, thus giving him a second chance. In this case you have to go all-in with AK.

[phriedom]

If I were the massive chip leader here, playing against 2 players who don't want to go out 3rd, I'd be raising every hand pre-flop, making them give up the blinds or gamble all their chips.

Unless someone goes all-in in front of me, then I'd actually make a decision based on my cards and the pot odds.

By just calling, you're inviting the BB to raise, which is what he did, and what I'd do in his shoes, even without an Ace.

If you push, and he doesn't have an hand, you might take down the pot right there.

[TEBPilot]

I really think you have to push here. Your stack does not allow the luxury of waiting for a better hand. If you get called you still have a great chance of doubling up. I think it was Jason Strasser (2+2 poster) that said, "gamble for 1st place, settle for 3rd." If you lose, so be it. You got all your money in the center with a great hand. There will be another SNG starting in 5 min.

[Losing all]

I think you missed my point. As I said, push! We clearly make the same play, me for the right reason, you for the wrong reason. If you think the first or third strategy "applies heavily" as the middle man in a 9000/700/300 stack situation, you might want to reconsider the value of 2nd place$.

btw- I don't get pushed around with AK much (or A7 etc, etc. late game for that matter) and I never suggested he play it weakly.