40-80 Hand

[Clarkmeister]

Bad 40-80 at the Commerce. I sat on the table change list for quite a while as I had a specific game scoped out, but meanwhile, I was stuck here.

I open raise from EMP with 8c9c. Tight player 3-bets in MP, another tight but aggressive player caps on the button. Blinds fold, I call, MP calls. 3 to the flop for 6.75BBs.

Flop: Qd Jd 5c. Checked around.

Turn: 9s. I bet, MP folds, Button calls.

River: 6h. I ponder and check.

[Nate tha' Great]

I'd bet the river and give him a chance to fold TT.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the river and give him a chance to fold TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think the river check is pretty terrible. That's mostly why I posted the hand.

[Steve Giufre]

I think you played well. I wouldnt be in love with it on the turn, but I think you have to bet. The pot is big, and if you get raised you can safely toss your hand. You put MP in a tough spot by leading and he may fold something like 1010 since he still has the button behind him, and probably gives you credit for at least the Jack.

On the end, I think you are gonna be up agaist AK, but I cant see you getting a call from a worse hand unless you have one hell of a table image. I think checking and calling a bet is best.

[Steve Giufre]

Yeah, I think the river check is pretty terrible. That's mostly why I posted the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree with you there. I think he's betting the flop with 1010. I also think if he does happen to hold that hand, he is defintely calling the river if he decided to call the turn. You said he was a solid player right? The river was brick and the pot is large. When a reasonable player makes a call on the turn like that with something lke 10's, he's gonna call the river just about everytime a blank falls on the end.

[Clarkmeister]

Could be. The problem is that TT turned open-ended, so there's a chance that he is more likely to have been thinking of his hand as a draw rather than a possible best hand.

[Steve Giufre]

I overlooked that. Could be you had reason to bet the river.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with you there. I think he's betting the flop with 1010. I also think if he does happen to hold that hand, he is defintely calling the river if he decided to call the turn. You said he was a solid player right? The river was brick and the pot is large. When a reasonable player makes a call on the turn like that with something lke 10's, he's gonna call the river just about everytime a blank falls on the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, though, Clark is gaining a little bit of extra bluffing equity from the fact that he open-raised from EP ... presumably he's not open-raising from EP with 98s if his table image is very loose. It would be natural for the Button to put him on a hand that contains a Q or a J, and the fact that the Button checked the flop is pretty significant here, since it indicates that he's scared of a check-raise. If it was the MP player that had called the turn bet, we'd have a different situation here.

I don't think he's going to fold TT all the time here, but I think he'll fold it some of the time in a pot that is *not* all that large. There are really only so many hands that he can hold here, and a bet costs you very little in EV against AK.

[elysium]

hi clark
i don't know about the call of 2 coming back to you on the pre-flop, but the rest of the hand is fine.

[samdash]

Of course you call 2 more. He doesn't have AJo he has 89s.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
hi clark
i don't know about the call of 2 coming back to you on the pre-flop, but the rest of the hand is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi el. El Esium that is.

I can't fold preflop. It is already capped and I certainly have enough equity to justify the call. Even against AK and QQ I have enough equity to easily call at 5.75 to 1.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
I overlooked that. Could be you had reason to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

could be.

you in LA or LV right now?

[Steve Giufre]

I'm going to Vegas tomorrow to blow off a few thousand, then I'll back at the Hustler trying to bad beat you on a regular basis.

[Gabe]

Wouldn't a tight but aggressive player have folded TT before the flop. Wouldn't he bet the flop if he was aggressive enough to cap with it before the flop? However, if he knew you might be raising with some quirky stuff, he might call with AK.

[David Sklansky]

What were you planning to do if he bet?

[Duke]

That's a great question. It's had me thinking about this hand a lot more than I otherwise would have.

~D

[GimmeDaWatch]

It is a good question. If you know the guy well enough to know that he's probably got AK or TT, and that he'd bet TT if checked to, you should definitely bet out and hope to fold him. If he would figure to only be called by a better hand and check his TT, I think the check is better. Of course, the entire question hinges upon guessing what % of the time he's fold TT on the river, which I would guess to be not very often.

[SA125]

I agree with Gabe that a tight player probably wouldn't cap TT here. I think an aggressive one would've raised the turn with TT there after picking up a draw.

Would he call with AK and what else could he call with that you could beat? He'd probably make a crying call w/TT because you ch'd the flop. You could just as easily have missed as have been going for a c/r with a 3 bet and cap behind you.

I'd be happy just to ch here and take this one down with 89s.

[elysium]

hi clark
i was on the verge of sleep as i responded to your post last night. great post by the way. right clark. you're getting correct odds in this to steal-in, and also call the 2 coming back. actually clark, the best move for you, although not apparent in this particular hand because of the flop and post flop action, but the best move pre-flop would be to put in the cap. 5 is the cap, is that right? this works against those opponents because you can check-call the flop, without fearing a raise those times that you can't close it. clark, i have found that avoiding being trapped in EP allows you to bask longer per session under the ev+ rays and also encourages your fair skinned counterparts to come out from under the umbrella those times you hit a blisterer.

from EP, i am of the opinion that vulnerable hands can be entered if you have correct relative position, can manuever the action into providing correct, or will have correct relative in the later rounds. this is why i disagree with most pundits who say that it is optimum to have the aggressive on your right. theoretically, this is suppose to allow you to get heads-up against him, but more often than not, the chumming manuvers he makes with his chips causes the entire field to break circle and motion chaotically, inducing their up and down rolling instict to frenzy, biting and ripping, red froth blinding. the aggressive is missing an arm but laughs as someone loses a leg. no.

the pundits are wrong here.

i like to have the aggressive on my left. this allows my opponents to consider my voluntary action made before the aggressive entered the hand, and made uninspired by him. if the field, nevertheless, begins considering a motion out of circle or affects the early stages of a chaos ripple, by acting before the aggressive you can take measures that keep the field moving progressively tooth to tail. this allows you to enter in with 87s for 1 big bet, and the priveledge of checking for position throughout the entire hand. this helps you see the turn inside the mathematical safety cage if you should happen to fall backward across the mathematical safety line.

and i guess that's the main guiding concept reguarding entry from EP with 87s. if you are going to make a play, you need to take some action that will provide a route of escape. if you play chess, you'd realize that it frequently is necessary to provide an escape portal in case your piece gets trapped. sometimes, in this example, capping the flop, you blast open an escape route up front when it appears that you will likely have the odds to at least see the turn, but only at 1 bet, not 2. your dangerous check on the flop would then open the door to escape. other times, having the luxury of relative position allows you to escape with a call. then again, if you should see that you might fall backwards across the mathematical safety line, but that you would not have means to escape a multi-way effort to pull you back across the line and into harms way, then you should not enter in. from EP, 87s needs a mathematical safety perameter with a b2 fianchetto portal. in chess that means escape route. never enter in from EP with 87s without one.

[Philuva]

Clark folds 89s for two more bets (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=685697&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

I think you are in rough shape here, but I am calling a bet on the river. The only thing you are ahead of is a straight and/or flush draw and that is not calling a river bet. Any pair that beats you is definitely calling on the river, so a river bet is valueless.

You might be able to induce a bluff on the river, but I think more than likely he is not on a draw but has a pair of J's or T's. MAybe he has 88 or 77.

I would check call the river.

[serling]

Interesting hand, Clark. A preflop cap and a flop check!

I definitely would've bet the river, and hope for an AK muck so I wouldn't have to show what I raised and called a cap with. (Though maybe I *do* want them to see.)

Or are you hoping he bets so you can get out with respectability intact?

serling

[Bigfish]

Even you bet, you are very likely to get called by TT because it's only one bet and the pot is big enough. AK would not likely to call you. I think checking is a good play.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I open raise from EMP with 8c9c. Tight player 3-bets in MP, another tight but aggressive player caps on the button. Blinds fold, I call, MP calls. 3 to the flop for 6.75BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess folding for those extra 2 wouldn't do wonders for your image, huh? even though you're outta relative position and absolute position, and you got 2 tight aggressives there where ONE of them likely HAS a hand.

and also, you said it was a bad game and that "i am stuck here"....did you mean im STUCK here (down a rack or 1/2 a rack) or just stuck inthat game? (what they see of you...)

flop i think you've dug a nice little hole in which you must now reside. check i agree and can't see myself betting and having them (THEM) fold for a bet.

turn you pair your nine and can beat AK (the ONLY legit 4bet hand of the button's you can beat). you bet he calls. why did he call? why no raise? does he set people up or does he have TT and want to see what you have. has he SEEN you're changeups? you're not pushing him off anything now with a flop check turn bet so his call is curious.

river now you know there is 100% 0 value in a bet. do you call his bet or do you c-r? if he bets behind the only thing he can be representing that you can beat is AK, AT (so unlikely its laughable) etc. scratch that, there IS NO etc. its just AK...so will he fold to your c-r? i don't think so...hes seeing a showdown...so you check and he bets and you fold or you check and he checks and you table your change up...UNLESSSSS you can get him to fold the only hand that beats you that he MIGHT fold: TT...thats really about it...but he could be slowplaying and you're done...so he can't call with AK, will he raise the river with it as a bluff? nah, probly not. so unless you want to give him the chance to fold TT here (which is consistent with his play) you gotta check.

hope i got this remotely close.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
from EP, i am of the opinion that vulnerable hands can be entered if you have correct relative position, can manuever the action into providing correct, or will have correct relative in the later rounds

[/ QUOTE ]

elysium,

thats exactly not the action plan that was going through my head but the exact thought process. i felt that he couldn't take back position with a cap so he should call or fold. i neglected that the cap was probably best in terms of if he's going to play, he might as well retain relative position despite the fact he's out of absolute position. i didn't take it to that place, but i should have and was allllmost there.

im a fan of that line...it costs 1 sb and drastically changes the hand.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

one more relatively unimportant question:

if he checks behind you do you a) proudly table the 98s and defiantly state, "pair of 9s, 8 kicker"?; b) keep cards face down and declare, "one pair" and see what his reaction is and muck if he tables a winner; c) flip over the nine and see his reaction then roll the 8, or vise versa?

-Barron

[Tommy Angelo]

This looks like an auto river bet to me for all the auto reasons. I'm more interested in how you suddenly became so good looking.

Tommy

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't a tight but aggressive player have folded TT before the flop. Wouldn't he bet the flop if he was aggressive enough to cap with it before the flop? However, if he knew you might be raising with some quirky stuff, he might call with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd think that a player aggressive enough to cap with AK would also cap with TT. I'd also think that a player willing to check AK on this flop would also check TT.

I don't think this player had seen me raise with anything quirky to this point.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
What were you planning to do if he bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call.

I thought his most likely hands were AA, TT or AK, but I didn't rule out something totally goofy. It is Commerce after all. My impression of his play was a quick one based on about 20 minutes of play.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
That's a great question. It's had me thinking about this hand a lot more than I otherwise would have.

~D

[/ QUOTE ]

I try not to post boring ones. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
more often than not, the chumming manuvers he makes with his chips causes the entire field to break circle and motion chaotically, inducing their up and down rolling instict to frenzy, biting and ripping, red froth blinding. the aggressive is missing an arm but laughs as someone loses a leg.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Clark folds 89s for two more bets (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=685697&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)



[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

Or are you hoping he bets so you can get out with respectability intact?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm never overly concerned with my respectability.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I open raise from EMP with 8c9c. Tight player 3-bets in MP, another tight but aggressive player caps on the button. Blinds fold, I call, MP calls. 3 to the flop for 6.75BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are very few hands or situations you should fold for two more bets after open raising but this is one. You are against a three bet from a tight player and a cap from a tight aggressive player. Both have position on you and most of the flops you hit will involve draws. You won't have an overlay against this lineup.

I don't think this is that close and wonder if anyone else agrees (I also wonder if my limit game is off because most of my play is no limit or other games lately)

The flop check and turn bet look OK.

On the river your main concern is an opponent with TT. His play is consistent with this hand and there is a good chance he won't pay you off. I'd bet and fold to a raise (a raise would indicate a better hand he was trapping with).

~ Rick

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
and also, you said it was a bad game and that "i am stuck here"....did you mean im STUCK here (down a rack or 1/2 a rack) or just stuck inthat game? (what they see of you...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Stuck as in I was still in the game when I wanted to be at another table. I was never up or down more than half a rack at that table, so image wasn't a real concern.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like an auto river bet to me for all the auto reasons. I'm more interested in how you suddenly became so good looking.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that I should have bet.

Hey, I'm just a naturally handsome dude! And I look real smart too!

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
There are very few hands or situations you should fold for two more bets after open raising but this is one. You are against a three bet from a tight player and a cap from a tight aggressive player. Both have position on you and most of the flops you hit will involve draws. You won't have an overlay against this lineup.

I don't think this is that close and wonder if anyone else agrees (I also wonder if my limit game is off because most of my play is no limit or other games lately)

The flop check and turn bet look OK.

On the river your main concern is an opponent with TT. His play is consistent with this hand and there is a good chance he won't pay you off. I'd bet and fold to a raise (a raise would indicate a better hand he was trapping with).

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I always fold in Vegas to this action. But in Vegas there is a 5-bet cap. They don't cap with AK either. And while I don't love making the call, I'm ok with it.

Anyways, I thought he could have AA, AK or TT when he just called the turn bet. I've seen AA played this way a lot lately, especially with lots of paint on the flop. He would have raised me with a true "trap with a monster" type of hand like QQ or JJ. While many here would raise the turn with TT, I don't think that is all that common from most other players.

I thought that the river check was kind of bad, as I could possibly get a TT who thought he was on a draw to fold. I may get a curiosity call from AK who hoped to chop. And even AA isn't going to raise.

But alas, I checked and he checked behind. As usual, I quickly tabled my hand. He nodded and flashed AK and MHIG. Then, in a first for me, a player at the table started chiding him for not betting the flop with AK. I started thinking I was in Vegas as I never see that in Cali.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still thinking the river check was bad.

[Pokergod]

Button has 10-10

-PG

Now I'll go look.....

[J.A.Sucker]

You should never fold in California for 2 more bets with this hand. It actually plays pretty well vs their holdings. This isn't because the players are worse (they may actually be better, but that's not the point). The point is that players will cap with anything they will play here, including medium pairs like TT or AK. In Vegas, 4-betting is a problem, since you will be 5 bet by hands that have you smarting, and you're probably going all the way. In LA, capping is much better, for all kinds of reasons that you're familiar with.

Oh yeah, betting the river is the best play, but that's already been said.

Let me also add to the chorus of folks who dig your new picture; that is one attractive man!!! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This looks like an auto river bet to me for all the auto reasons. I'm more interested in how you suddenly became so good looking.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that I should have bet.

Hey, I'm just a naturally handsome dude! And I look real smart too!

[/ QUOTE ]

and it all comes wrapped up with modesty for the full package.

-Barron

[Clarkmeister]

It's like the triple crown, baby.

[Softrock]

Which do you never see in Cali? Someone chiding a player for not betting the flop? Someone not betting the flop with AK? Or someone betting the flop with AK after it's capped BTF?

When I have an image of being very tight BTF (which I usually have) I like coming in for a raise in MP with hands like 89 suited - sometimes I steal the blinds, sometimes I can win by representing big cards when my opponent doesn't hit the flop well, and sometimes I can surprise the hell out of people when I hit my hand. However, I've learned the hard way to make this play judiciously - certainly not routinely. I suspect you agree.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Which do you never see in Cali? Someone chiding a player for not betting the flop? Someone not betting the flop with AK? Or someone betting the flop with AK after it's capped BTF?

When I have an image of being very tight BTF (which I usually have) I like coming in for a raise in MP with hands like 89 suited - sometimes I steal the blinds, sometimes I can win by representing big cards when my opponent doesn't hit the flop well, and sometimes I can surprise the hell out of people when I hit my hand. However, I've learned the hard way to make this play judiciously - certainly not routinely. I suspect you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

The chiding. Players in Vegas critique the play of hands virtually every hand it seems. In Cali I almost never see that happen. For someone to essentially tell this guy "that's what you get for checking the flop" in Cali is very rare in my experience.

And yes, I usually fold that hand there preflop. But if I had folded it, we wouldn't have a hand to discuss! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Pokergod]

I was going to say you need to bet out to get 10-10 to fold. I guess he had AK. I'm always late getting involved in these discussions.

This forum is pretty cool though. It helps to read other folks thought processes.

-PG

[Inthacup]

Now, if you just change your 2+2 handle to ClarkNasty, you'll be a quadruple threat guy. With a future that bright, you gotta wear shades. /images/graemlins/cool.gif



Cup

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
The chiding. Players in Vegas critique the play of hands virtually every hand it seems. In Cali I almost never see that happen. For someone to essentially tell this guy "that's what you get for checking the flop" in Cali is very rare in my experience.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the main reason for this is that it is rare that any two of us speak the same language.

[Softrock]

[ QUOTE ]

I believe the main reason for this is that it is rare that any two of us speak the same language.




[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's only part of it. The other part is that the potential kibitzers are already in action on the next hand.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd think that a player aggressive enough to cap with AK would also cap with TT. I'd also think that a player willing to check AK on this flop would also check TT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well even if thats true, he gonna be a big favorite to have AK.

[andyfox]

I agree with the pre-flop fold for 2 more. The passivve post-flop play of this particular hand will probably happen again the year after Chelsea Clinton becomes president. Even if he hits a non-draw flop, he's still gotta survive two more cards.

On the river, the only hands that make sense for the guy are T-T or A-K. Don't tell me he's playing A-A like this, he's not. Not in L.A.

[anduril]

Tight player 3-bets in MP, another tight but aggressive player caps on the button

so why are you calling 2 more bets when you more than likely are going to face way more bets than you want to unless you flop a winner?

[Michael Davis]

I threebet with 82o from the SB the other day just for a hand to discuss, but it turned out so poorly, I don't want to discuss it.

-Michael

[Ed Miller]

I threebet with 82o from the SB the other day just for a hand to discuss, but it turned out so poorly, I don't want to discuss it.

Lol... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Very Groucho Marx.

[andyfox]

"Players in Vegas critique the play of hands virtually every hand it seems."

And not just post-mortems. They do this during the hand.

[andyfox]

He said "routinely," not "always." /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ClarkNasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, if you just change your 2+2 handle to ClarkNasty, you'll be a quadruple threat guy. With a future that bright, you gotta wear shades. /images/graemlins/cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see, I have my shades on.