I did bad with this hand... how many times did I go wrong?

[bjmathey]

I think I played this hand pretty poorly. I could never get a read on my opponent and did not expect what happened. Your comments are all appreicated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed)

UTG ($24.75)
UTG+1 ($70.60)
UTG+2 ($6.35)
MP1 ($68.83)
MP2 ($34.50)
MP3 ($23)
CO ($19)
Button ($40.10)
SB ($28.35)
Hero ($19.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets $2.5, UTG+1 calls $2.50, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($7.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets $10, UTG+1 calls $10.

River: ($27.50) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $7, Hero calls $6.30 (All-In).

Final Pot: $40.80

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Jh Qs (two pair, jacks and threes).
UTG+1 shows 3c Jc (full house, threes full of jacks).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $40.80. </font>

ps First post here, thanks again for the stellar help I am sure to get.

[ML4L]

Hey BJ,

From the beginning, I'd be looking for ways to get to a showdown cheaply. That may or may not entail checking the flop. It definitely entails not putting in a huge chunk of your stack on the turn. On the river, you're in a situation where you've pretty much forced yourself to call by virtue of the only obvious draw having missed and by your pot-stuckedness.

Top pair, crappy kicker is never a hand that you want to back with your stack, much less out of position and on a paired board...

Welcome to the forum.

ML4L

[umdpoker]

i have trouble with hands like this too, except for i usually have a better kicker. your opponent played well. i think you sometimes have to give up on hands like this once you are called on the flop. then again, flush draw was possible. hmmm...what do others think?

[SlyAK]

I would check-fold the turn... to any reasonable bet at least. (Not something like $1 obviously)

Sly

[bjmathey]

Here is what I was thinking as the hand played out. Pre-flop I have to check, my hand is not that great. Flop comes... I cought a bit of my hand but there is a flush draw, someone could have trips, or I could be out kicked. All these are problems. So I decided to make a decent sized bet to try and drive out the flush draws, and if anyone comes over the top get out quick. I considered simply checking to see if anyone would bet, but didnt want to give a flush draw the free card. Unfortunatly I just get called. I figured he had a J and questioned his kicker, or was on the flush draw. I then decide I really need more info on this guys hand, but again dont want to give the flush draw a free card, and feel I need to make a substantial bet to get the flush draw out. So I bet. And get called. Now I am sensing trouble. River comes. Its nothing scary, but I figure to check, his raise, while all my stack, is not large in relation to the pot. Putting him on either trips (where he get lucky on a weak kicker like A-3) or a jack like me and it comes to the kicker.

Obviously this was wrong. How do I expose when someone has the nuts on the flop when I act before them?

Brian

[SkippingGoat]

I play these hands by check-raising. The problem with betting out in early position on a paired board is that at low limit tables someone with open trips almost ALWAYS slowplays them, even in the face of a draw, and you're faced with an escalting pot without knowing where you stand. It's hard to put this guy on a 3 if he voluntarily entered the pot, but given that you're in the blind (decent likelyhood that you have a 3) and he's still not laying down to your bets you have to figure he's either on a draw or has you outkicked.
By checkraising you fire one strong shot and if you're called or raised you don't put another dime in the pot. You risk giving a free card(s) to a flush draw but ultimately in this situation I'm much more concerned about dumping all my chips to a monster with a marginal hand.
All this being said, I don't think your flop bet was BAD, but it left you in a dubious spot on the turn. By check-raising you gain a lot more information (and maybe even fold out a better J) without risking your whole stack while only giving up a little to a flush draw.

[blargh]

I like you check preflop from the BB and I also like your bet on the flop, betting the pot in an unraised pot w/top pair, okay kicker is good. And your thinking about worrying about the flush draw also justifies your bet. His check call on the flop can signal a number of things. Here is a list of some reasonable possibilities what his check call could mean. Either (1) he is on a flush draw (2) he is slow playing, or (3) he has a top pair w/a kicker that is probably worse then yours (otherwise why wouldn't he lead out and bet). The turn your betting to much I think. If you bet half the pot instead (or perhaps maybe a little less) he is still getting poor pot odds to chase a flush draw. And also, your pot committing yourself w/a mediocre hand. If I'm getting called on the turn, I'm slowing down, at this point I'm worried on a number of fronts. Either (1) he slowplayed something, or (2) your outkicked. In any event I'm checking on the river and folding to a moderate (or larger) bet and calling a small bet on the basis that i'm getting good odds on my call so I don't have to be right a lot for it to be a profitable call. (Personally I don't like checking on the turn, because if your ahead your risking the chance of inducing a bluff on the river which you probably can't call).

Just one thing on one pair though. This is a bad hand, and a lot of people lose money on it from what I've read in the 2+2 posts, I'm almost certainly one of them. Hands like J-10, Q-10, K-10, and A-10 are complete trash unless your in late position, or the the flop comes something like 10-7-2 rainbow and your holding A-10, but even with this hand your not to happy because if you get called by top pair worse kicker the turn might bring an overcard pairing their kicker (maybe i'm a little paranoid though). Basically from what I've read and experienced, the higher limits you move up, the worse these hands become. Look at some of the posts on starting hands, a lot of people consider QJ, KJ, KQ, AJ and even AQ (suited or otherwise) trash from early position. I use to be happy w/KJ and QJ, now I don't like them, and I bet if I move up in limit I probably won't be liking AJ and KQ (from early position anyway).

Multiway pots, if you bet your tp-decent kicker on the flop and get a lot 2 callers or more, I'm giving up the hand most of the time. Its not worth protecting against drawing hands on the turn, because it just becomes to expensive and your probably beat anyway.

As for the guy flipping over J3 suited, right down in your notes "flush monger", and punish him when he's chasing a flush w/that piece of crap =].

[cornell2005]

NM i cant read supposedly

ml4l said essentially what i was going to, play this for a small pot, and check the turn. betting the flop is the standard play, but a case can be made for checking here too. your decision whether to call the turn and the river depends on how much it will pot commit you and how likely someone at your table is to call the flop and bet/bluff the turn with their J,x or weaker hand.

[ML4L]

Hey BJ,

[ QUOTE ]
So I decided to make a decent sized bet to try and drive out the flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

In a Party $25 (where people limp in EP with J3s), you aren't getting a flush draw to fold here.

[ QUOTE ]
I considered simply checking to see if anyone would bet, but didnt want to give a flush draw the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I figured he had a J and but again dont want to give the flush draw a free card, and feel I need to make a substantial bet to get the flush draw out.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not like you have top set and the flush coming is going to ruin a powerful hand. If you don't have a hand that you feel confident putting a lot of money behind, sometimes it's better to risk giving a free card than to make large bets out of position into people who may or may not be drawing.

[ QUOTE ]
Its nothing scary, but I figure to check, his raise, while all my stack, is not large in relation to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the proper way to think about things. Just because a bet is small in relation to the pot does not mean that you necessarily have the odds to call. Think about what he could HONESTLY have and then decide. Again, here, the flush didn't come, so there is a chance that he is betting a busted flush draw. So, maybe you call, because you're getting great odds. Hell, it's Party $25, the guy might have a worse jack. So, I think the river call is acceptable, but think through the hand the right way...

[ QUOTE ]
Putting him on either trips (where he get lucky on a weak kicker like A-3) or a jack like me and it comes to the kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, if your opponent had been good (which he was not), you will never see a jack bet on the end here. It will either be trips/boat or a bluff. Do you understand why?

[ QUOTE ]
How do I expose when someone has the nuts on the flop when I act before them?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't. Consider yourself educated as to the power of position... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

ML4L

[bjmathey]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, if your opponent had been good (which he was not), you will never see a jack bet on the end here. It will either be trips/boat or a bluff. Do you understand why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it because even if he has A-J he is afraid I might have the set, and would simply check off after me to see the showdown cheaply? But if he is bluffing the only way to win is drive me out, while if he has the nuts (ok not quite the nuts since pocket J's beat his boat) he is going to bet for some value?

Thanks for all the help.

Brian

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it because even if he has A-J he is afraid I might have the set, and would simply check off after me to see the showdown cheaply? But if he is bluffing the only way to win is drive me out, while if he has the nuts (ok not quite the nuts since pocket J's beat his boat) he is going to bet for some value?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the gist of it. The important thing when deciding whether or not to bet the river is how often you will have the best hand WHEN CALLED. AJ might bet the river if he thinks that his opponent has a jack, but if JT bets the river, it's a bluff, because he knows he's dead if called. This is ignoring any crazy sub-games that might exist between two opponents who know each other well...

And, like you said, a busted draw can only win with a bet and a boat or trips with a good kicker is almost always going to win when called.

ML4L