First Post/ One Hand/ Thoughts Appreciated

[deeper]

Hello,

I'm new to post. I've been reading for a few weeks. I'm a well read player with about a year of semi-serious experience. I'm really trying to improve. Here are some hands from a online $150 buy-in multi last night.

Early in the tourny.

Blinds still 10, 20.

I'm at 1885, up from 1000. Two other players at the table have me covered, one at 3000+ and the other at 2200.

UTG+1 (1790)limps, MP limps (3160),

I have Ah6h and I limp.

Is this a justifiable play? I figured that it was early in the tourny and for a small % of my chips I may catch a big hand. But should I have raised?

The action continues:

Directly to my left (2200)raises to 150.

It folds to me. At this point in the tourny I didn't have a great read on this player. He had gained most of his chips playing AA UTG+1 where he limped and reraised all-in. I imagined his range of hands was 10/10 to A/A, AK, AQ, KQ. Regardless, I was willing to gamble less than 10% of my chips here, for a chance at a big hand if he had a non-ace pair, or if i hit the flush. I took the flop.
Does anyone hate this call?

Flop, 4d7h5h, giving me 15, or 18 outs if he has a pair lower than aces or KQ.

I liked my hand, but didn't want to call all-in (which I was afraid he would put me to, if he had an overpair), so I moved all in, forcing him to make the decision.

Was this a correct play in terms of risk/reward.


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He took full time and eventually folded.

Was this too conservative of a play in the early stages of a tourny? Should I have at least check raised here?

[MLG]

Taking the hand decision by decision:

1. Limping with a suited ace after a couple of people have already limped is a pretty standard play, nothing wrong with that. You don't want to raise in my opinion because your hand is not strong enough to want to put a lot of money in the pot preflop (anybody who has a better A or a pp bigger than 55 is pretty far ahead of you) so just call and look to flop big.

2.I hate your call of the preflop raise. Playing raised pots out of position with less than premium cards is a recipe for disaster. You're just asking to lose a lot of chips when you flop your weak Ace and get out-kicked. Additionally its very hard to play draws out of position, because you can't take free cards off and you will often be bet off your hand.

3. On the flop I think your fear of being forced to call all-in is unfounded. The pot is about 400 and he has about 2000 chips. An all-in would be a massive over bet, expect a pot sized bet a lot more frequently. This is the perfect time for a check-raise. You have a monster draw (infact your draw is good enough that you should call all-in if faced with that decision) so you don't mind if he checks behind you giving a free card. You flopped your dream flop, and let him get away from it without putting any more money in the pot, check-raise him every time. If he makes a massive all-in bet you have to call it (your at least a 60-40 favorite here, even more if your aces would be good) but that should not be what your worried about. This is a great flop for you, you want him to put more money in.

[ZootMurph]

I agree with the things MLG says.

However, I'm curious how people would react as the villain in this situation. What would you do on the all in bet on the flop if you were holding:

1) AA
2) KK/QQ
3) AK, AQ, KQ
4) JJ-99
5) 88
6) 66
7) 44, 55, 77

What would you be thinking our Hero had, and why would you call or fold?

[MLG]

I'm folding overcards, and 66 and calling with everything else. The all-in massive over bet on the flop is not a move indicating strength in my opinion. I would imagine that if he had a real hand he would check-raise me, thus with most hands im calling here. This bet would scream like A-7 to me, or 88 something decent but not all that strong. The one notable exception is early in a deep money tourney where massive overbets are less likely to be bluffs, and more likely to be tricky value bets.

[SossMan]

I think the limp after a couple of limpers is fine, because this is starting to look like a good value pot.

Once it gets bumped up and the folded to you, you have an easy fold. I would be more willing to call here w/ 6d7d than Ad6d. If two or more of the limpers also called, and you were closing the action, I could see maybe calling.

Once you hit that flop, you HAVE to check raise all in. He has the rope, let him tie his own noose. You have a huge draw here especially if your ace is good. A free card doesn't kill you.

He's likely to make a pot sized bet here, and then you go ahead and get all in.

[SossMan]

oh, yeah....welcome to the forum! keep posting hands!

-SossMan

[deeper]

Thanks for the response.

I knew I should have got more chips out of that hand. The funny thing is, in a non-tourny situation I would check raise this every time, but I was nervous and afraid of not catching the draw.

On calling the raise with A6 suited out of postion. Everything MLG said is right on. I was out of positon. Dominated by AK, AQ, which is likely what he had. That being said, I was willing in that situation to risk 8% of my stack with this hand, because I could have got away from the hand after a stab if an ace hit the flop. But, that's what makes the play really bad, because I catch my flop and blow my shot at any real chip gain.

[fnurt]

In the early stages of a tournament, limping with a drawing hand for a cheap price is normal and your play was no exception. It cost you next to nothing and you rated to get multiway action.

But when it gets raised after you, and you no longer have the multiway action, and the price is no longer as cheap, you MUST have the discipline to fold. Maybe it was "only" 8% of your stack, but do this 3 times, and you've just wasted a quarter of your stack.

A lot of the value of this hand is flopping a flush draw, which plays well in a multiway pot. In a headsup situation, with a preflop raiser who is likely to bet again, flopping a flush draw is just another way to bleed chips away.

In this case, you flopped a huge draw, so it was fine to continue playing postflop. I agree with those who suggested a check-raise. But the bottom line is, don't let the fact that you got a lucky flop persuade you that the preflop call was correct.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

If this was the 1st time he did the "Stop'n Go", I'd let him have the pot unless I flopped 2 pair or better. Yes, I'd have raised in LP after limpers with hands that hit this board hard. This is also why I have to play this situation different as at this stage in the tournament I'd had to have shown down one of my positional raises. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

On party There are people who will massively overbet flush draw boards with good hands due to the number of people who over play flush draws and people who will do this with 2 pair or a set too because a lot of people won't fold any pair in this situation. If I haven't figured out what that overbet means for *him* I'm folding.

MarkV.

[MVicuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it was "only" 8% of your stack, but do this 3 times, and you've just wasted a quarter of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another great way to bleed off chips is to get delt AK 3 times in a row or JJ. All hands nobody would tell you to fold to a raise, but all hands that can bleed chips. There are no 'free pass' hands.

This isn't directed at anyone in the thread, but lurkers who may be confused at a LOT of people's advice that say you shouldn't be folding big draw hands like suited connectors, tiny pairs, and Axs for a raise thats less then 10% of the smallest stack. Position is important as you can steal pots off of scared underpairs or missed over cards, but if the hand is Heads Up if you act before your opponent a free card almost always hurts your opponent more then you.

So, If you can't figure out a way to win the pot without a showdown or can't figure out when your marginal hand is good or can't figure out how to get all your opponents chips into the middle, fold these '10%' hands for any raise and I would really question if you should be playing them at all in NL. A 10% hand is a hand that only gets a favorable flop 10% of the time.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[patrick dicaprio]

1. if you are MP2 it is probably a fold here. you should try to avoid draws out of position. if it were late position then a call is OK. you want to avoid being raised, which is what happened here. you are calling 8% only if raised, but many times it will be raised and you will be calling for more chips with only a 3-4% chance of a flush. most times you will be folding on the flop or catching an A and getting trapped with a weak kicker. i would prefer to see a raise here rather than a call.

2. i think you know that you should probably checkraise here. rather than checkraise though, perhaps a small bet is in order. many times with a flop like this players will assume you missed and you may get raised. i think this scenario offers you a better chance of getting all of the chips, but I cant fault a checkraise and certainly wouldnt bet here everytime, it depends on the opponent.

Pat

[mack23]

I agree with all three points here all the way.

It is very interesting how your bet of all-in could have signaled weakness and prompted the larger stack to call /images/graemlins/shocked.gif That early on definately roll with the hand and if you hit it being so early in the tourney with maniacs left you could make a huge gain.

-Mack

[deeper]

Thanks everyone. Your responses were insightful and appreciated. I'll post agian soon.