Play from the small blind

[Geng]

Details - 30$/5 person single-table sit-and-go. Blinds are 100/200. I'm on the BB with T3275, person to my left has T1210 and is the BB. Only other person left is sitting on the button with T215 and goes all-in. With 46o I folded and after seeing the board go:

Flop: 6h 7s 6d
Turn: 4h
River: Qc

I could have shot myself. BB showed AJ spades, Button showed 8c 8h. I could have at least taken out the button but I didn't think the pot was showing me the right odds to call the extra T115. I ended up winning but I could have eliminated a threat earlier. Did I mess up? Thoughts?

-Geng

[Nemesis]

i think it was a good fold, you were getting the odds you needed from the first all in, but i don't think you were getting what you needed if the BB came along which i think he would have... unless you raised all in, and then that's RISKY if you get called... i would probably fold as well. *edit* unless the BB was notoriously passive and there was very little chance he'd raise you out. Then i think it's worth taking a peek at the flop.

[Girazze]

Not sure I understand how he was getting the odds needed from the first all-in. Paying T115 to win T630 is about 5.5:1 pot odds, right? The odds of his 46o winning have to be much greater than that. Am I wrong here?

[Hood]

OP: Is that 'I'm on the SB...', not BB?

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand how he was getting the odds needed from the first all-in. Paying T115 to win T630 is about 5.5:1 pot odds, right? The odds of his 46o winning have to be much greater than that. Am I wrong here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think you are right. He's not against one hand, he's going to be against two (we can presume BB is going to get in on this). And your out of position with a rubbish hand on the flop. And the button isn't a random hand, it's better than average (he's got 3 hands to make his stand).

To OP: You've got the second to worst hand played 'hot and cold'. Just because you are the big stack, doesn't mean it's your duty to take down the smaller stacks - ignore what comes on the flop.

Saying that... is raising here an option? Lets say you raise BBs stack. He's looking at 2nd place, so he's not going to play without aces, kings, perhaps queens and AK. If we can presume your raise would get you heads up, your now 5.5:1 against one better than average hand. If your against overcards, that's 3:2. I think a raise here is a +CEV move - comments?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Did I mess up?

Let's see. You folded getting 9-2 pot odds instead of calling for 3.5% of your stack. Yeah, you screwed up. Call 100% of the time with any 2 cards under these circumstances.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I think your all missing the biggest point here. It's only 3.5% of his satck and only 115 chips. Thus even if the BB raises him out after he calls he's a) not losing much more than he would by folding and 2) not giving the winner of the pot much more than he would by folding.

What he gains is the chance to see the flop with a random hand that *if* he hits, he can bust both opponents.

Sorry, in this particular set of circumstances, the call should be automatic with any 2 cards.

He's not against one hand, he's going to be against two

True, but since the BB isn't folding anything it's not like he's against 2 monsters. He still has to play well after the flop, but it's likely that the flop will miss both him and the BB anyway and they'll just check it down most of the time.

[37offsuit]

I'm with Kurn. Pot odds aren't all that bad considering the BB has a vested interest in checking this one down. I'm not completely against putting the BB to the test as well, although I like this play less when there will be no side pot if the BB folds. I think you're increasing the EV of the small stack by getting the big stack out.

The other thing that I take into consideration here is that since the small stack has pushed out of position, we assume he has a better than average hand. This indicates that he he is likely a stronger player. Letting him tripple up here isn't horrible either, as it will favorably increase the bubble. The two smaller stacks will end up a lot closer to each other which should allow you to more than make up your T110 in subsequent hands.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

the small stack has pushed out of position, we assume he has a better than average hand

The guy who pushed is on the button.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

And the button isn't a random hand, it's better than average (he's got 3 hands to make his stand).

Huh? He's the BB next hand. There's 3 left.

[Hood]

Good points - but I still prefer pushing out the BB here.

You say "*if* he hits, he can bust both opponents.". What kind of flop do you want for 42o that will bust the other opponent? A42, K42. Perhaps A44, A22. That's about it. Other than that your going to have to check/fold. If you pair, it'll be bottom pair, so it's very risking betting in to the other big stack on the bubble with bottom pair. So, if you just call, even though it's only 115, unless you get a miracle flop you're going to lose that 115, giving either to the big stack or help triple-up the small stack.

But you've swayed me from folding to raising here to get HU.

Edit in response to your posts:
When I say 'out of position', I meant he wasn't forced to play, he could have waited next hand, so he's likely to have a better than average hand. I yes sorry, 2 hands (this one and the BB) to play, not 3.

[37offsuit]

Yes, sorry I meant out of position in regards to his stack size, meaning that he could still fold a below average hand given that the BB would certainly call T15 more with any two, that the SB would likely call. In addition the small stack would be in the BB the next hand, it was possible that the big stack now on the button wouldn't like his hand enough to waste T215 and that the medium stack would choose not to double up the small stack with a sub par hand as well, giving him a few extra chips to fold his small blind if necessary and get through a few more hands.

Given this specific situation, it's likely the small stack has an above average hand.

[37offsuit]

In the BB, it's possible that if both his opponents get sub standard hands, they might fold giving him T100 extra rather than risking doubling him up. More of an issue for the medium stack, but still a possibility that lends itself to why he might wait in this position with out at least an above average hand.

He also has to assume that unless the BB hits his hand hard, the large stack in the SB is going to take the next pot, which helps him as well.

[Geng]

Yes, sorry for the typo. I was on the SB.

The BB and I checked down a hand earlier that tripled up the guy on the button and with 46o I figured I was just throwing my money away. The board just got lucky and would have hit my hand perfectly this time.

-Geng