KK in the Blinds -

[Sarge85]

This is being done by memory

Playing at a 1 Pound/2 Pound table /images/graemlins/blush.gif ICP Skin

ICP is uber loose, and at times strangely aggressive.

I have KK in the BB.

7 People Limp in - I raise - all obviously call

Flop comes

8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check wanting to Check raise and thin some of this field. - Sadly no one bets and it get's checked around.

turn 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif I bet - get called in probably 4 spots.

River j /images/graemlins/heart.gif - I bet and get called in 2 spots.

UTG turns over 44 for the turned set.

Flame away.....


Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

(To me there are two ways I could have played this hand better)
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EDITS: I was going to wait and add my thoughts later, but the hands to ordinary if I don't comment on them now I think.

Anyway - I think the better play would have been just to check PF. /images/graemlins/blush.gif What? not raise Kings? Atrocious!! I don't want to give away my hand, and it ties directly to what I want to do on the flop.

So that's one way to improve. Second way (is tied directly to the first) is to CR the Flop. Yes I tried to CR here, but I gave my hand away PF - so I think that's why it didn't work. I think if I had just checked PF, with so many people in, someone surely would have stabbed at the pot and a CR would have had a higher success rate. I think I stubbed myself in the toe by not doing that.

Now- since I had Raise PF - I definately should have led the turn, and our friend with 44 would (you would think) muck. Well, I gave him a nice freebie didn't I /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

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Ok now flame away - in particular - who checks this PF after all the limpers - knowing that your plan is to CR the flop?

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Rico Suave]

Hey Sarge:

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway - I think the better play would have been just to check PF. What? not raise Kings? Atrocious!!

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people, not necessarily on this forum, really like this kind of play out of the blinds. Keep the pot small...c/r the flop to protect your hand....value of deception....etc. I just think that there is simply too much value to be gained by raising in this spot.

If I raised, I would have bet the flop, but if there were multiple callers, I would consider going for a c/r on the turn if a blank fell.

--Rico

[lil']

You're going to let a guy hitting a 2 outer on the turn convince you not to raise 7 limpers with the second best hand in hold-em?

[Sarge85]

No not at all.

But I will say that I know that by showdown this pot will be rather large, and I need to be doing what I can to win it. I can make that assumption PF.

So my thought was that I should have checked, not reveal my hand, and put myself in a better position to raise the flop.

Generally you raise KK to build a pot - i have no problem with that - however the pot will be big already, and the next goal is to win it. I think I need to focus away from building a pot here - to taking the darn thing down.

Mr. 44 catching another 4 - well good for him, maybe I should have just led out, but that really didn't make me think *THAT* was the reason I should have checked. I was thinking more in the big picture what the better play is.

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[lil']

I was being a wise-ass.

But really, you are giving up seven SB here pre-flop when you know you have the best of it. I know I can't be giving up that much pre-flop, can you?

Big pairs hold up unimproved in big pots all the time. Is it harder for them to hold up against 7 opponents than with 2? Yeah, but you are giving up an awful lot here pre-flop.

You will be the favorite on most flops. Will people have odds to draw to draw to some things? Yeah, but you will be in the lead and have the best odds of winning most of the time.

[MAxx]

you should have raised preflop, and bet out. with that many peeps seeing flop, you need to do everything in your power to thin the field. ok, so everyone probably would call your raise. but after that they are a little uneasy that you have a big hand to raise from the blind (which you do). So now when you bet out on the flop, some of those 7 people are going to drop out. you may even get some help along the way, suchas someone with top pair may raise you on the flop. If so, that may have gotten pocket 4s out. If you bet out and got a bunch of calls between you and and pocket 4s, he probably would have taken one more card off and you would have lost anyway. But the key here is to put down the hammer. I would be much more inclined to make your play (of checking preflop, c/r flop) when there was only one or two callers in the pot.

[sthief09]

if his 44 had a /images/graemlins/heart.gif in it, he'd be correct to call the flop anyway. 16 SB preflop, plus your bet, plus you'll get at least 3 or 4 calls. I like going for the check raise. betting into a draw heavy board won't chase anyone out. if the board was less coordinated, I'd bet out since I want overcards to call. but there are so many potential draws and almost all of them are getting odds to call at 17+:1

raising KK is a no-brainer. it is the 2nd best hand in an 8-handed pot. what more do you need? you're getting value for your set alone.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok now flame away - in particular - who checks this PF after all the limpers - knowing that your plan is to CR the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I don't like about the hand Sarge is NOT that you tried to checkraise the Flop. It's that you're actually *thinking* about not raising Preflop.
I don't mind checkraising the Flop if the field fulfills the following
1. The lineup IS passive enough that they would not raise me on the flop with, say, top pair.
2. The lineup IS NOT passive enough that anyone with half a hand will still check.

So if you won't get raised but they will bet, fine checkraise the flop, otherwise bet out, and hope to 3-bet.

I hate thinking about not raising preflop here though. I don't think there's a cat in hells chance you will collect the bets you lose (on average). I think I'd have to take a few days off if I didn't raise here.

Your mistake, if it was one, was not betting the flop against the wrong lineup. Never was the mistake raising preflop.

[Ron]

Hi, just a tough hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif by bettting flop you give correct odds for lots of hands to chase. You were not going to chase one out with you preflop raise plus wtih that many hand there was at least ONE ACE I would have bet the flop and turn and check the river. when flush (straight) card hit.

Your second story I like if in checking the flop a late player bet and you can raise with most player facing two bets, if not and a early player bet just call. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Sarge85]

Points well taken John

You know probably the unthreatning nature of the flop was working against me here.

Consider the "lowness" of the flop - Ten high just isn't alot of incentive for someone to bet at - even if they had paired their ten - they still have 4 over cards to get through.

I think I need at least a Jack or Queen to fall on the flop for someone to bet at it, for me to try and checkraise.

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway - I think the better play would have been just to check PF. What? not raise Kings? Atrocious!! I don't want to give away my hand, and it ties directly to what I want to do on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read anybody else's response yet, but dude, this is a terrible idea. With a pot that big, deception loses value and you do your best to get your money in there.

I recently played a hand live where I raised every single hand I entered, then decided to limp UTG and got the chance to limp re-raise, making it obvious to my fellow 2+2'ers at the table to what I had, but it didn't matter because I have so much damn pot equity not raising would be bad, bad, bad, deception or no deception.

[balkii]

I think people are starting to take this "maximize my chances of winning the big pot" thing a little too far.

If you always raised KK after 7 limpers and always simply bet out on the flop and took it from there you would win a TON of money.

[AceHigh]

I like the check/raise, especially on a coordinated flop as this one. You have to figure anyone with a Ten, a flush draw on a straight draw might bet.

You got sucked out on, it happens, next hand.