Tommy Angelo
06-21-2004, 08:53 AM
$20-40 at LC, full and frothy. I'd been playing several hours. Behind me lined up three in a row were the other tight players. On my right was a softly churning sea of chips.
I was on the button. There was one limper (think Charmin) when it got to me. This was a rare and welcomed opportunity for right then in this game and I could feel my range of seize-worthy starters expand. For sure any ace or king I would raise. I peeked at Q8o. I raised. I sloppily hadn't looked left but with these guys on my left it didn't matter so much because they don't give much, and also because they play sensible enough that I could rightly predict that my raise would be limprotected.
This next thing came as a surprise to me which is why I want to write it out now. It occurred to me after the hand that if everyone had folded to me before the flop, I would have folded the Q8 on the button against these two guys in the blinds at that moment. I'd already pushed my button a few times against them and they hadn't liked the endings. De-escalation seemed right against them, button vs blinds, probably for the rest of the day, unless the cards forced a battle.
After putting the hypothetical occurance and the actual occurance side by side, I believe that had it been folded to me on the button, my best choice would have been to fold, but at the same time, I believe that after the limper limped, my best choice was to raise. Because of limprotection. Because the guys in the blind who otherwise would play back with any ace against my preflop openraise from the button, or maybe checkraise the flop headsup against me just for the hell of it, they would be disarmed, preflop, and on the flop, by the limper. And preflop, because they knew that I knew that the presence of the limper meant that I had no shot of taking this pot down without a flop, they would have to put me on some kind of hand, and they are the type to fold the blinds to a raise if they have medium cards or worse, if they think they are up against a hand.
Normally we would expect that more players before the flop would encourage more players before the flop, right? But not this time. As it turns out, if I'm right about this, the existence of the limper made each of the blinds less likely to call my preflop raise, not more likely. Another form of limprotection. Thoughts?
(The play came up rosily, but even if I had folded to a flop bet, or missed the turn and folded then, or even if I had flopped a straight and somehow lost a ton of chips, I think I'd still like my play and thinking on this hand, I think.)
(The whole hand: After one player limped, I raised on the button with Q8, the small blind folded, the big blind called, and the limper called. Threeway me last. The flop came J-7-4 rainbow. All checked. The turn was a queen. The blind bet out, the limper called, and I called. The river was a blank. The blind checked, the limper checked, I bet, the blind called, and the limper called. KweenGoot.)
Tommy
I was on the button. There was one limper (think Charmin) when it got to me. This was a rare and welcomed opportunity for right then in this game and I could feel my range of seize-worthy starters expand. For sure any ace or king I would raise. I peeked at Q8o. I raised. I sloppily hadn't looked left but with these guys on my left it didn't matter so much because they don't give much, and also because they play sensible enough that I could rightly predict that my raise would be limprotected.
This next thing came as a surprise to me which is why I want to write it out now. It occurred to me after the hand that if everyone had folded to me before the flop, I would have folded the Q8 on the button against these two guys in the blinds at that moment. I'd already pushed my button a few times against them and they hadn't liked the endings. De-escalation seemed right against them, button vs blinds, probably for the rest of the day, unless the cards forced a battle.
After putting the hypothetical occurance and the actual occurance side by side, I believe that had it been folded to me on the button, my best choice would have been to fold, but at the same time, I believe that after the limper limped, my best choice was to raise. Because of limprotection. Because the guys in the blind who otherwise would play back with any ace against my preflop openraise from the button, or maybe checkraise the flop headsup against me just for the hell of it, they would be disarmed, preflop, and on the flop, by the limper. And preflop, because they knew that I knew that the presence of the limper meant that I had no shot of taking this pot down without a flop, they would have to put me on some kind of hand, and they are the type to fold the blinds to a raise if they have medium cards or worse, if they think they are up against a hand.
Normally we would expect that more players before the flop would encourage more players before the flop, right? But not this time. As it turns out, if I'm right about this, the existence of the limper made each of the blinds less likely to call my preflop raise, not more likely. Another form of limprotection. Thoughts?
(The play came up rosily, but even if I had folded to a flop bet, or missed the turn and folded then, or even if I had flopped a straight and somehow lost a ton of chips, I think I'd still like my play and thinking on this hand, I think.)
(The whole hand: After one player limped, I raised on the button with Q8, the small blind folded, the big blind called, and the limper called. Threeway me last. The flop came J-7-4 rainbow. All checked. The turn was a queen. The blind bet out, the limper called, and I called. The river was a blank. The blind checked, the limper checked, I bet, the blind called, and the limper called. KweenGoot.)
Tommy