Draw vs. Draw.

[threemanifold]

I didnt know either of my opponents all that well, but seemed to me that UTG was loose sorta passive, and that BB was looser and passiver /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero TEHero%%%%%T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 TEHero#####) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.25 TEHero*****) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (12.25 TEHero*****) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 TEHero*****
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.25 TEHero*****, between BB and UTG.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG (14.25 TEHero*****).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows Tc Ac (one pair, tens).
UTG shows Kh 9h (flush, king high).
Outcome: UTG wins 14.25 TEHero*****. </font>

After the flop action, I was split between UTG having two pair with the T or a big heart draw. Either way, 2 of my outs were dead. I thought BB had AK or AQ or maybe even KQ but that seemed less likely.

Anyway, Im really unsure about my flop 3-bet and my turn card. Should I have just called the raise on the flop? I think I was wanting to force out BB (may be dumb given my limited read on him/her) and get an option for a free card on the turn. But after the action, a 3-bet is silly? And the turn call, i think i was looking at the size of the pot and decided that one more bet couldnt hurt, esp since BB is coming along. (or something, hard to say exactly... seems like a bad call to me now)

anyway, how would you play it?

[stripsqueez]

i fold this draw on the flop

i dont want to think about the turn and i have sworn off pre-flop debate

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[samdash]

So basically he sucks

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
So basically he sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

i've done this before - i feel like a chip spewing chook after - paying the flop isnt a big crime because you have outs - its a good hand to post

J10 suited or otherwise is a wicked hand in my experience

yep its pretty sucky

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[fyodor]

I fold on the flop in a heartbeat. I am also this close to joining the fold JTs preflop camp unless first in on the button or free play in the Blind. Only 16,000 hands in PokerTracker but JTs is a consistent loser for me.

Back to this hand though. I don't know how you could possibly justify cold calling 2 bets on this flop.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
Only 16,000 hands in PokerTracker but JTs is a consistent loser for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

My JTs +0.65BB after 30K and JTo +0.02BB. Maybe because i like raise JTs UTG and raise JTo from button and CO and than play it hard?

Or maybe because i catch more flushes/straights than my fair share.
But anyway i like raising hand that has positive EV even a little EV like JTo and the one thing i like very much is JT with AKQ flop or KQ2 etc in a raised pot... It's rare but it's nearly always repayable huge.

[tewall]

On the flop you can guess you are behind and have 10 outs twice. That appears to give you roughly a 40% chance of winning the pot. Some of those outs may not be real outs, and you could hit your hand some of the time and still lose, so your winning chances would have to be disounted.

I ran the actual hands on twodimes and found the actual winning % is only 15%. If you knew you only had a 15% chance of winning, you'd probably fold without thinking. So the key to playing this hand is that it isn't nearly as strong as it appears to be.

It's true that your opponents could have other hands, so your hand would look better, but with this particular flop there are a lot of combinations where your hand is dominated.

Regarding the flop raise, that raise would make sense if there was a decent chance you could knock your opposition off their hands, but with this flop it's more likely you'll just get played back at.

Finally it's interesting to note that if you had flopped a flush draw in addition to the straight draw and bottom pair, it's much less likely your hand is dominated as one opponent cannot have both a flush draw and a pair. (On a two-toned flop at most one person can have both a pair and flush draw).

[fyodor]

JTs -.11 per hand but only 46 hands so still meaningless
JTo +.04 per hand for 164 hands

[naphand]

Ah this old "JT" chestnut/old wives tale/gripe again.

I think JTs and to a latter extent JTo is a highly game and position-dependent hand. Just for that reason, I am going to run some extensive SIMS this evening and see what pops up. Some people may be surprised.....

[threemanifold]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah this old "JT" chestnut/old wives tale/gripe again.

I think JTs and to a latter extent JTo is a highly game and position-dependent hand. Just for that reason, I am going to run some extensive SIMS this evening and see what pops up. Some people may be surprised.....

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems right to me. If the table is l/p enough (how much is enough), isnt JTs playable one off the button? I will admit that I didn't know all that much about any of the players at the table, but it seemed right at the time to do what i did (obviously). But the question still stands.

[Apocalypse]

coldcalling? 3-betting! second best option to fold imo. Depending on ones reads it could even be the best

[samdash]

I couldn't agree more about JT suited or not. Probably, no definitely the most overrated hand. There is nothing i hate more than raising in the CO and having the awful BB call me and then check call the whole way on a 10 high board and turn over QT. Any hand that gets slapped around by QT sucks.

This "draw" on the flop is another example of an overrated hand/situation. JT causes nothing but problems like this.