preflop question - KQs

[joker122]

You have KQs on the button. Folded to unknown player who is 3 off the button and he raises.

Raise, call, or fold?

[PassiveCaller]

On the button with a chance to be heads up with position? 3-bet.

[Trix]

I muck here.

[Rico Suave]

Joker:

I would usually fold here.

-Rico

[Nutz&Boltz]

Without any read on the type of cards this player raises with, I fold.

[sthief09]

I think there's a big difference between 2 off the button and 3 off the button. I'd 3-bet with a lot of hands who 3-bet in LMP, but not in MP (3 off the button). So I muck. I'd only 3-bet here with AK, AQ, AA-99.

[sublime]

You have KQs on the button. Folded to unknown player who is 3 off the button and he raises.
I will assume this is a typical LL table.

Are there any callers in between? are the blinds loose?

If the answer to either of those questions is yes, then I call.

My order of preference is:
1) Call
2) Fold
3) 3-bet

EDIT:
I have read all the responses and not one person asked about the players in the blinds. I dont know about you guys, but at almost all my tables at *least* one of the blinds is coming along to play and more often than not, both of them.

[SA125]

The player is unknown. He's doing the right thing by open raising any hand he'd play here. What could they be? I think the range is wide.

I think KQs is played call, raise, fold here with folding to an unknown player unlikely.

[StellarWind]

Whatever they should be doing, most LL players need nearly as good a hand to open-raise from Button+3 as from UTG.

This is a raise-or-fold situation with folding the clear choice against an unknown opponent. Calling is not good because you need to get the blinds out. You must win hands where you both miss and either he has lower cards like KJ or QJ or you bet him off an unimproved ace. You can't have the blinds grabbing those pots by making a pair of sixes or showing down pocket deuces.

[sublime]

This is a raise-or-fold situation with folding the clear choice against an unknown opponent. Calling is not good because you need to get the blinds out. You must win hands where you both miss and either he has lower cards like KJ or QJ or you bet him off an unimproved ace. You can't have the blinds grabbing those pots by making a pair of sixes or showing down pocket deuces.

Why do you want to drive the blinds out when you hold a strong drawing hand?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you want to drive the blinds out when you hold a strong drawing hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is primarily a high-card hand. The chance of making a big hand is not very significant in a short-handed pot. The small increase in implied odds from the blinds' participation does not begin to compensate for all the times they will grab the pot by making a pair or two.

[Joe Tall]

What are the blinds like? Is this player capable of the steal?

Can anyone post something with some flavor these days?

For the record, I was in a supre-tight 10/20 at the Borgata last weekend and 3-bet KQs on the button from a CO-1 likely-steal raise without hesitation with tight blinds.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sublime]

This is primarily a high-card hand. The chance of making a big hand is not very significant in a short-handed pot. The small increase in implied odds from the blinds' participation does not begin to compensate for all the times they will grab the pot by making a pair or two.

Yes sometimes you will lose to two pair, more often than not you will make up for it by bad players calling down to the river with bottom pair and you having top pair or they catch two pair and are up against your flush.

Why does it matter if they catch a pair of the flop? Do you anticipate calling down to the river unimproved against a preflop raiser?

3 betting here is a distant 3rd choice for me. These guys love to call with incorrect odds/dominated hands. I will give them every opportunity to do so.

If the hands was KQo and you were up against a maniac then I could see the merits of a 3-bet.

[sublime]

For the record, I was in a supre-tight 10/20 at the Borgata last weekend and 3-bet KQs on the button from a CO-1 likely-steal raise without hesitation with tight blinds.

I think Joes answer sums this up perfectly. IT DEPENDS on the table. At a party .5/1 - 2/4 (and prob higher) you want these bad players in the blinds along for the ride. At a table like Joes (a few 2+2er's I imagine) you want the tighties out. Since "typical" tables dont have 2 tight(or good)players in the blinds, calling here is the way to go.

[BottlesOf]

I think calling is the best action at the least number of tables.

[sthief09]

yeah you beat me to it. I think calling is by far the worst option. sure, you save 1 SB preflop and you invite in the blinds, but you're submitting yourself to be the PFR's bitch, and 2 blinds isn't enough multi-way action to overcome not having control of the pot against a hand that likely dominates you.

[lil']

If I think he's steal raising, I'm 3 betting. If I think it's legit, I'm tossing it.

If I don't know the guy, I'll toss it and make up my mind later after I gather some more evidence.

[sublime]

yeah you beat me to it. I think calling is by far the worst option. sure, you save 1 SB preflop and you invite in the blinds, but you're submitting yourself to be the PFR's bitch, and 2 blinds isn't enough multi-way action to overcome not having control of the pot against a hand that likely dominates you.

I still dont understand why we are in a big rush to 3-bet and force bad players to do exactly what we dont want them to do, which is tighten up.

EDIT: Thankfully this doesnt happen all that much, add one caller to the mix and calling here is much easier IMO.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read all the responses and not one person asked about the players in the blinds. I dont know about you guys, but at almost all my tables at *least* one of the blinds is coming along to play and more often than not, both of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

the blinds don't matter. you could have preflop mind control over the blinds, telling them what to do preflop, and mucking it would still be correct.

[sthief09]

1 caller and I still fold.

KQs is likely to be dominated here. in order to overcome being dominated you need to guarantee there will be 3 or 4 other people in the pot with you. that's why this is an easy fold.

[joker122]

"KQs is likely to be dominated here."

I don't see your reasoning behind this. Don't you think, given the amount of players in (zero), and the player's position, that his raising standards could be less stringent than AK, AQ, and big pairs?

[sthief09]

StellarWind put it perfectly. most players have almost identical raising standards in this position as they do UTG. maybe I'm just an idiot but for the first few months I played I had no clue you were supposed to raise a lot ligher when you're opening close to the button.

[joker122]

"StellarWind put it perfectly. most players have almost identical raising standards in this position as they do UTG. maybe I'm just an idiot but for the first few months I played I had no clue you were supposed to raise a lot ligher when you're opening close to the button. "

All I can say is that I have found this to be untrue.

[unome]

I'm 3 betting my suited KQ in this spot. This could be a good opportunity to get some information on the unknown player even if you end up losing it.

[lil']

I'm 3 betting my suited KQ in this spot. This could be a good opportunity to get some information on the unknown player even if you end up losing it.
Playing this to the end and losing is a horrible price to pay for information.

[sublime]

1 caller and I still fold.

You are forgetting 1 main point. Your opponents SUCK, and will call you to the river with ANY piece of the board.

Yeah, you may be dominated but when you are not and flop a strong draw etc you will more tham make up for it. You should be the best post flop player at the table, and if your not its beacuse you spend to much time wondering if its ok to call a preflop raise with KQs on the button with only 1 limper. These decisions are not worth debating when you factor in the mistakes your opponents will make after the flop.

EDIT: Here is an example. Here is a hand that one of our board members posted and didnt even play all that well post flop and still dragged a nice pot:

KQs (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=770268&page=0&view=co llapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#770268)

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 3 betting my suited KQ in this spot. This could be a good opportunity to get some information on the unknown player even if you end up losing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Paying to learn about your opponent is rarely +EV. Just be patient and collect what the other eight guys are paying for.

[sublime]

Just wanted to admit I could very well be wrong. Just at these limits I have a hard time laying down so much hand against these players. Unfortunatly this line of thinking will hinder my play further on in my playing days.

Good stuff as always guys /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT: I hate admiting I may be wrong /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[arkady]

[ QUOTE ]
If I don't know the guy, I'll toss it and make up my mind later after I gather some more evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just don't know why more people adopt this strategy. It seems so common sense to me, but alas at the poker tables opponents are idiots until proven otherwise.

Good reply lil' - would do the exact same thing!