2 Mini Raise Hands

[La Brujita]

Even though I fear the wrath of Greg /images/graemlins/smile.gif, I want to post two hands I miniraised with to get thoughts or opinions. There is some discussion on the one table forums about mini raising so I thought I would post a few hands.

Hand 1

This is at the final table of a $100 PL from earlier this week. We are five handed and the chip counts are as follows (names changed to protect the innocent):

Me (14974 in chips)
Tiger (27951 in chips)
Phil (23982 in chips)
Ernie (36381 in chips)
Sergio (4712 in chips and BB this hand)

Blinds are 400/800 no antes (what is the reason for no antes in pl anyone know?)

I pick up Ah As on the button and mini raise. BB calls.

Flop comes Tc 2h Kc. BB leads out with an all in bet with Ts 7s. I call and turn is 9h river is Th.

Hand 2

Stars $22 rebuy. I forget exactly where we are but about 1/3 of the field left or so, probably a little less.

Blinds 300/600 antes 50. I pick up Ad 7d in the big blind, four see the flop which comes:

As 4d 6d.

Checked to the last person to act who bets 1200. He is loose and aggressive, and may be betting with nothing, middle pair or ace any kicker (he has me covered).

Folded to me, I mini raise to 2400, one more fold and he calls.

Turn 3c and I push my 12116. Opponent calls.

River is 9d.

Opponent flips over Ah 5h. I will give additional comments later.

[Dentist]

mini raises are driving me nuts.... that and all-in re-steals.

Mini-raises pre-flop in the early stages don't necessarily represent a monster...because some bad players make this move without any consideration of what they're doing.

In the late phases (especially if the player doesn't generally make a miniraise preflop) it is a pretty clear indication of a monster.

I also hate the move on the flop or turn.... However, it's a pretty good indication of an above average strong hand.. Someone wants to give you just the right odds to make an incorrect call.

I've been suckered by the moves a few times assuming weak play.... plus folding seems so "lame" to the minimum raise... maybe that's the strength of the move?

I don't know... I almost never do it and I hate it when others do it.

[MLG]

I think there is a world of difference between a preflop miniraise and a min raise either on the flop or turn. On hand 1 if there has been a lot of minraise stealing going on at the table I like the play, usually everybody is pretty short at this point and several people will be minraising to steal blinds (even though I may think minraising on a steal is a bad idea the constant practice of it at the table makes minraising with big hands less suspicious.

As for hand 2, I don't think the minraise is a bad tool for multiway pots, but I would like to hear your line of thinking behind this particular hand. If you are going to move in on the turn, why not do it on the flop (are you just trying to milk this for the extra chips from the minraise)? Do you check the turn if a diamond hits? It seems if he is that agressive (and your that confident you have hime beat) another play would be to call on the flop and checkraise the turn if he bets again. You have the monster draw so there's no harm if the turn checks around for a free card. It seems to me that by playing the hand this way you will let the original bettor off the hook if he doesnt have an A.

[La Brujita]

Thanks for the comments on the hand. I posted it because I thought it was interesting hand, one thing I want to note is 99.5% of the time that I check raise here I check raise all in. Because of the dynamics of the tournament in that hand I felt a double up with this hand was crucial to my chances of making the final table (I had AA busted with a huge non mini raise pre flop later to lose).

I reviewed what I thought were the weighted average probabilites (I thought it was somewhat to very likely he was drawing to a few outs) and decided that I was most likely not pricing him in. Of course he could have had A higher kicker, but he could have had a middle pair or even nothing. He was an aggressive player and I though preflop with AK AQ or even likely AJ he would have raised a limper. I thought his likely holdings were a low to middle pair, a suited ace low kicker or a hand like KQ or QJ or something even trashier.

I considered a check call on the flop but I did not basically for two reasons (i) I was convinced he would call my miniraise with any two (due to my read on him), ie I could build the pot size and (ii) I felt I could commit him to drawing slim/dead with the sweetened pot.

There was only one person in the middle who I assumed would fold but I was actually hoping for a raise all in from either one since I thought I was ahead.

Basically there are a few attendant risks with this type of play. First, you may commit a FTOP violation (by pricing him in). Second, even if you are pricing him out let's say he is calling with 33% ev when he needed 34% ev to call, if he needed 38% ev to call but still would have called with 33% ev you are making a "mistake" by not betting the correct amount to get the most out of him. I put mistake in quotes because it is very much a judgment call that it is only a mistake in one sense of the word if that makes any sense.

I would have checked the turn if a diamond hit. I didn't feel as though I could check raise again, and we had a pot of 7350 or so and I had only 12000 left so I didn't feel like I had many options other than a check or push. He might have picked up an inside straight draw and whenever you give a free cards you are giving infinite odds to hit as long as they are not drawing dead. I felt my hand was clearly not strong enough to take this risk.

As I mentioned above, I minicheckraised on the flop which I rarely rarely do. In fact this is probably the only time I have done it in the last four months or so. I have miniraised occasionally with monsters but I thought the minicheckraise hand was interesting.

Also I just wanted to comment on the first hand since most people were not open miniraising I thought the mr would be a clear sign of AA or KK. But that did not stop my shortstacked opponent from leading into me with top pair weak kicker. I think it goes to show that most opponents are less observant or skilled than we may think. This was the final five of a $100 pl tournament, and the players were all relatively proficient.

[Jason Strasser]

LaBrujita,

I think the min raise in hand one is fine. Better than limping. I'd make a standard raise, but if you think you'd get more action with a min raise, go for it. For me, I like making standard raises to disguise my hand value, and I wont make a min raise here. But I completely see what you are trying to do.

The second hand is where I have a slight issue. If I am you, I assume right there that I am behind in the hand. Yes, this is opponent dependant. But you essentially have top pair no kicker, and if your opponent had a worse ace than you, he probably has 2 pair. So if you play the hand like you are ahead, I have no problem with your line. However, I would tend to raise the flop and check behind on the turn, getting to the river as cheap as possible.

I guess hand two depends on your opponent, but these min raises seem absolutely fine to me.