Pot Odds, Flush Draw, and being berated

[SnowDog]

I'm relatively new to poker, having played recreationally every once in a while over the past few years, but diving into it as a hobby in the past six months or so. I've read some books, played some free online, and finally started playing microlimits on Royal Vegas (prima) with some free money they gave me for signing up.

For a change of pace, I entered a .75+.25 NLHE SNG yesterday. I realize this isn't helping me learn fixed limit holdem, but it's fun every once in a while for a different experience.

In this tournament, everyone is given T1000 to start. I'm down to around T900, and one person is out. In mid-late position, I get dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. I limp in (blinds are 20/40), and so do 4 other people (200 in pot) including the blinds.

Flop comes 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
It's checked to the Villain, who bets 200 (of his roughly T900 stack). I've got the nut flush draw and an overcard, so I decide to call. Everyone else folds.

Turn comes A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and Villain goes All In. At this point, I don't have the flush but I do have top pair and feel good about calling since I feel like he's just trying to scare me out -- he can't be that sure he has a winner unless he has AK. I'm willing to take that risk. We're both all in now (more or less -- he's got 50 coming back to him).

Cards get turned over; he's got a K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. He's got second pair, good kicker, but no real draw.

River comes 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif and I win the pot with Aces.

Lucky, sure, but not like I won with 2s full of 7s or something. But this guy just starts berating me.

Villain: "Unbelievable!!"
Villain: "What could you possibly have been thinking??"
Me: "Excuse me?"
Villain: "How on earth could you possibly call a 200 bet on the flop with just one overcard???"
Me: "I felt good about the flush draw, maybe it was a bad play."
Bystander: "Only a bad play if you lose."
Villain: "Maybe!? Maybe!? You had nowhere near the pot odds to make that call."
Me (not sure on odds): "You can't expect everyone to play WSOP quality poker in a 1$ SNG internet tournament. Sorry about the beat"
Villain: -leaves-
Me: "Thanks for the lesson, I guess."

I stewed on this a bit (placing second by way of a nasty 3-way all-in situation at the end that I entered with a low pair -- flopped a set but so did the winner), and started questioning my understanding of pot odds.

Flopping 4 to a flush, according to what I've read I'm about a 1.9:1 dog of getting the flush on the turn or river. I am confident that my nut flush will win the pot if I land it. I also have 3 other outs -- the other aces (though I don't know this for sure yet).

The pot had 200 in it, he bet 200 (total pot to me was 400), so I had to pay 200 to call -- the pot odds were 400:200 or 2:1.

Isn't this a good call? 2:1 odds as a ~1.9:1 dog?

You can question my limping in with A2s, perhaps, or my all-in call on the turn (I figured he was trying to scare me off at that point), but I don't think my play on the flop was terrible.

I know I have a lot to learn, but I feel like the flop call was a good play. A gamble, but a good gamble. Am I off base?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Isn't this a good call? 2:1 odds as a ~1.9:1 dog?

Wrong. You're a 1.9:1 dog to make the flush by the river, so your call would be correct on flush odds alone *if* you were already all-in, but you're not. There's still more betting to come.

If you assume your A overcard is an out, you have 12 outs to improve on the turn making you a 2.92:1 dog to improve, so from your perspective, you do not have correct pot odds to call his flop bet.

Now, some people might counter and say you have implied odds if you hit your flush. Maybe and maybe not, since a big bet from you after a 3rd /images/graemlins/club.gif hits might not win any more chips as he'll likely fold a good percentage of the time. In this case, the implied odds were obviously there when you hit the A, so you ended up OK.

[SnowDog]

[ QUOTE ]
If you assume your A overcard is an out, you have 12 outs to improve on the turn making you a 2.92:1 dog to improve, so from your perspective, you do not have correct pot odds to call his flop bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. Thanks for clearing that up; it appears I was mixing up two different concepts (odds to make a hand overall vs. pot odds on just this betting round).

So I did get lucky, but I still think it's not as simple as the Villain would have me believe.

My education continues....

[Webster]

Anytime anybody makes a wise-ass comment to me - I TRY ignore them.

AS long as you are quite - you will get under their claw and fester and THAT IS GOOD.

[benkath1]

Welcome to low limit online hold em. I had one guy on stars rip on my icon for about 30 minutes one night. He got madder and madder and I got richer and richer. Just let the comments roll, or offer him his dollar back. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[uuDevil]

You made a mistake. The guy who berated you made a bigger mistake. Now you have a better understanding of odds and will be a better player next time you come up against him.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
You made a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he? Certainly not a big one. Implied odds in NL are impossible to quantify but they're a lot more than nothing here right? If this is a big mistake I'd lile to know it because I think i'd make the flop call as well.

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Did he? Certainly not a big one. Implied odds in NL are impossible to quantify but they're a lot more than nothing here right? If this is a big mistake I'd lile to know it because I think i'd make the flop call as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, maybe not a big mistake.

I wouldn't make the call, but I'm just a NL beginner myself. I would be thinking that my outs would kill my implied odds against a good opponent since he might not put any more money in the pot if an ace or flush card comes. I suppose if I knew villain would play as he did, then good call.

Maybe a post in MTT is in order.

[donkeyradish]

He made a $200 bet because if you have a flush draw HE WANTS YOU to make the mistake of calling with it. So he has no cause to complain.

Its very stupid to blame your opponent for getting lucky cards.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Implied odds in NL are impossible to quantify but they're a lot more than nothing here right?

Obviously. He hit his A and took the guy's whole stack.

However, I think many people use implied odds as an excuse to call with flush draws too often. I personally don't think implied odds are that huge with flush draws since it's pretty obvious when the flush hits and your opponent can get away from the hand on a later street.

[SnowDog]

[ QUOTE ]

He made a $200 bet because if you have a flush draw HE WANTS YOU to make the mistake of calling with it. So he has no cause to complain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought of it that way, but you're 100% right.

Of course, I bet he never thought of it that way either. I know my own lack of skill and experience often leads me to silently wish for my opponents to fold even if I have the best of it. It's a weakness I think is probably shared by many new players.