Party 2/4 K5s

[PooFighter]

Hi everyone. I've been lurking for a couple of months and this is my first post. Please comment on all streets. I'll post results later.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero folds.

River: (11 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11 BB, between UTG, MP2, SB and BB.</font>

[lunchmeat]

Welcome to 2+2 Poo

I think you played the hand nicely until the turn. Even though you probably do not have the best hand on the turn the pot is very big and there are a decent number of river cards that could give you the winning hand. Specifically, of the 46 remaining cards in the deck 5 will help you. In odds this is expressed as 41: 5 or 8.2: 1. So this means that you'll catch a king or a 5 about once every 9 tries. This might not sound so good, but if you look at the pot you'll notice that there are 11 big bets in the pot and you only have to put in 1 big bet to see the river card. This is expressed in odds as 11: 1. So you're getting 11: 1 on a 8.2: 1 bet.

What this all means is that by calling you are making a wager that will win once every 9 times, but when you do win the payoff is 12 times your wager, making this a very good bet.

The moral of the story here is that when you call with a drawing hand you want the payoff to be larger than the chance that you will make your hand. To know the correct play, you'll have to do the math in your head at the table (this is a lot easier than it sounds, and if you practice you'll get the hang of it). Just remember to count how many cards will help you, and divide that number into the number of cards left in the deck. Then look at the pot size, and if the number of big bets in the pot is greater than the number you got then you'll know whether or not you should make your call.

Hope that helps.

[PooFighter]

SB shows Tc 6c (one pair, fives).
BB shows 2h Qd (two pair, queens and fives).
UTG shows Jc Ac (one pair, fives).
MP2 shows Ah 6d (one pair, fives).
Outcome: BB wins 11 BB.

Thanks Lunch. With so many ppl calling on the flop and turn, I thought for sure someone was on a flush draw. And while playing, I mistakenly thought I only had 3 clean outs when in fact I had 4 (5 /images/graemlins/club.gif was already on the board). I guess it was a borderline call, and my inexperience folded a winning hand. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Little Fishy]

lunchmeat has the right idea about calling with outs. but why are you coming in with this hand in the first place. even if you catch a king, you'll most likely either lose a big pot or win a small pot. the only thing that you're realistically drawing to preflop is a flush, and not even the nut flush at that.

congrats at joining the forums, we're happy to have you with us.

[oscark]

I disagree with the other posters. You need to check through on the flop. You are betting bottom pair into 6 other players, with flush and straight draws out there. You are not going to pick up this pot.

On the turn, you made a good fold. You likely only had 4 outs, as a club is a killer.

[PooFighter]

Yes. I usually fold this hand PF, but with so many limpers I thought it was ok. I was hoping for more comments about the PF call...

[Shalara]

With that many limpers, I think you should call suited aces, kings, and even queens on the button. The implied odds are tremendous; it may not be the rock solid nuts you're drawing for, but you are drawing for a pretty good flush. As long as you can throw away an obvious second best hand, you should be fine calling this pre-flop.

I also call all suited connectors and suited one-gaps with this many people.

[cold_cash]

I would play any suited King here, also.

I'm not to the point where I'm playing any suited Queen yet, but I'm sure it could be profitable in this spot.

[Shalara]

*grins* Honestly, I feel pretty squeamish about the queens. I think it's supposed to be like 5 limpers to make it profitable, but I forget. I do if there are 6 or 7, but I am never very comfortable with it. And I really don't like it. Heh, I prefer 86s to Q3s any day.

I know that you should raise with some of them occasionally, and I do that too, but I don't feel that I've got that part down near solid enough to suggest which ones. Personally, if there are a lot of callers, I always raise with AKs, clear down to T9s. (talking no-gappers here) Sometimes 98-87s, but I don't have a very good feel for how solid a play that is.

[Bob T.]

If a preflop play is marginal, I think most people try to avoid commenting, because there is less money to be made or saved preflop, than postflop. I think this call was in the grey area, depending on how you thought your opponents played postflop.

On the turn, you were only getting 7-1 odds, on what looked like a four outer, although you might have had five outs. I think you made a reasonable fold.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.