Mirage 10/20 - 64s in the BB

[SinCityGuy]

Another great Mirage 10/20 game, with six clueless players and a three good T/A players.

UTG +1 open limps (He’s been playing about 75% of the flops, but I haven’t seen any of his hands yet), three more calling stations limp, very good T/A SB completes, and I rap the table in the BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Six to the flop for 6 SB’s.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked around.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets. Well, now….I was all prepared to fold on the flop, but it got checked around, and suddenly I find myself with a flush draw and gutshot straight draw. I call, and UTG +1 comes to life with a raise. I’m thinking KJ, QJ or JT are his most likely holdings. The rest of the field folds (including the SB), and I call.

Two to the river for 8 BB’s.

River: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, he raises, I call.

All comments are welcome, including the pros and cons of drawing on a paired board.

[balkii]

FWIW, i'd play it the same every time.

pros and cons of drawing on a paired board?

pro: JJ32 someone is unlikely to have a filled house
pro: you are getting 4:1 plus implied odds

cons: your flush might make someone a full house yaddda yadda yadda

[Michael Davis]

It's really dangerous, but given your description, I'm inclined to three-bet this river and probably pay off a four-bet. Or, I might have checkraised. You definitely cannot fold, and this player is likely to overplay trip jacks.

-Michael

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SinCityGuy:

I still find it amazing that people are still wondering whether it is correct to draw to a flush on a paired board.

In this case, you have better than just a flush draw. You're a little over 3-to-1 to complete your hand and the pot is offering you 7-to-1 plus what you might win on the river. Even though you may occasionally make your hand and lose (as you did) it's not even close and your call on the turn was correct.

best wishes,
mason

[Michael Davis]

By the way, if a solid player was in the SB, I would raise your hand myself. This is a good pot to take a stab if the SB has the capability of making that play.

-Michael

[Steve Giufre]

The turn is close, I would definitely fold without the gut straight draw, but I think you have a call with the probable extra four outs. The river is an easy bet, and I would pay off the raise agaist most all opponents, although I wouldnt like my hand very much, since he should be well aware of the fact that you made a flush. Three betting the river is not an option. I think you played OK.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi SinCityGuy:

I still find it amazing that people are still wondering whether it is correct to draw to a flush on a paired board.

In this case, you have better than just a flush draw. You're a little over 3-to-1 to complete your hand and the pot is offering you 7-to-1 plus what you might win on the river. Even though you may occasionally make your hand and lose (as you did) it's not even close and your call on the turn was correct.

best wishes,
mason

[/ QUOTE ]


Saying he is getting 7-1 is misleading. He's only getting 4-1 when facing the first call on the turn. I think thats when he was questioning his call, not after the check raise. I still agree with your point though.

[Michael Davis]

I think you can clearly fold to a four-bet, and I disagree that this player should be aware that the OP made a flush. This guy is seeing 75% of his hands preflop. Granted, this does not speak to his postflop play, but I'm making the assumption that he's an idiot.

I'm not advocating three bets with this hand very often, but even a guy who is playing 75% of his hands is not coming with J3 or J2. He's probably got three jacks, and once he gets three-bet, he'll examine the board, figure out what the hell is going on, and call. If he raises again, you lose. Fold.

-Michael

[Steve Giufre]

I did miss the part about the flop percentage, but I still wouldnt three bet.

[anatta]

A flush isn't too hard to see. His opponent would have to be bottom 1-2 percentile not to put hero on a flush. Its just the dynamics of the hand, everybody knows what is going on here, even the fish.

[Michael Davis]

If it is bottom 1-2 percentile, then you are folding for the raise on the river?

-Michael

[Al_Capone_Junior]

At the time you had to decide on the turn, you were getting 4:1 on an approximately 3:1 shot. However, the distinct possibility of getting raised behind existed here, and you will occasionally make your hand and lose anyway. Therefore I consider this to be a close decision, one where I would usually just fold. If the pot had been raised preflop it would not be close and I would call.

al

[Kevin J]

Mason-

I come up with him getting more like 4 to 1 with the possibility of raising behind him. I agree that calling here isn't terrible. Mostly because of the JJ32. But what if the board was JJT9 or QJJT? Is calling the turn still as cut and dry as you make it out to be? Cuz I'd often fold in that case. Doesn't seem worth it. Also, if he IS going to play, shouldn't raising be considered?

[mikelow]

Even though it looks like you lost to KJ, you´re still getting enough to call. Remember, it could be QJ or AJ that you´re up against.

Don´t play results!

[elysium]

hi sin
paired board. the only problem here sin is the river bet. no it's not a broadway compact, but it's dang close to it. you need to realize that this opponent is betting the river every time in this spot. he has the cover of a monster rivered boat to get in his value bet. he doesn't fear the flush sin, he fears the raise. since that possibilty is so unlikely, he bets your hand for you sin.

when you are staring down the barrel of a broadway monster, you are better off checking from first position unless you're attempting to fold your opponent out. since there are no hands stronger than yours that he will fold, but are a few hands that are weaker than yours that he will bet but might not call due to board horror, even though there are several hands that he will call if bet into, betting doesn't represent anymore ev than simply check- calling. those times he will fold if bet into are on par with those times he will check the river down. what betting does accomplish though is it tells your opponents that you have diddlie if you should have a reasonable diddilie type hand but check on the river from first. any opponent who may have checked down a stronger hand will now see the value bet. so this type of river play only provides your opponents with info that will be used against you later.

[Ezcheeze]

Folding getting 4 to 1 on a 3 to 1 shot is very wrong here. Even if you somehow knew it was going to be raised behind you, assuming a call from the bettor you are still getting 3.5 to 1. Of course most of the time this won't happen since most of the time the players won't have very good hands in this situation. The overlay here is too much to consider folding for fear of a boat.

-Ezcheeze

[anatta]

He he, you caught me! Got to be more careful around here! No, I am not folding to the raise. /images/graemlins/blush.gif You are clever, but what about my point?

Its like when everybody folded to the turn raise, even the bad players know its trips. Since everybody knows the guy has at least trips, and everybody knows everybody knows he has at least trips...on the river, its almost certain that both players have the hand that they are representing...("almost certain" that is /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

[SinCityGuy]

He had J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif for the flopped full house.

I've only been playing holdem for a year, and a few months ago I would have made a sarcastic comment. I congratulated him on his hand, and told him that he had me drawing dead.

A few hands later, I won a large pot from him with 99 against his 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif when the flop came 942.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Kevin:

Remember, if he makes the flush he will often collect an additional bet or two, so yes with JJ32 I would call and in my opinion it is an easy call. However, with a board like JJT9 it probably becomes right to fold because the chance of making your flush and running into a full house is now much larger.

best wishes,
Mason

[MrBlini]

[ QUOTE ]
He had J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif for the flopped full house.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't tell me, let me guess what game this was. You were playing 10/20 at the Mirage? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif