I know I screwed the pooch with AQ

[ddubois]

I would have had the same problem with AK. Seems like it should be a common post-flop situation, and I'm not exactly sure how to handle it. I guess it boils down to: "With missed overs, should I check/fold, or try to represent?" Trying to peel one off after the re-raise was bad, I know.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t800)
SB (t800)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls t100, Button calls t100, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>,

Flop: (t325) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to t400</font>, Hero calls t200.

Turn: (t1125) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets t300 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1425
<font color="green">Main Pot: t1125 (t1125), won by Button.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t300 (t300), returned to Button.</font>

[HUSKER'66]

I would raise less preflop. It's the first hand and there's a long way to go. 4 x BB (60t) sounds better.(its enough to usually keep out the chasers and A/Q and A/K do better shorthanded)

If the flop hits you proceed, otherwise easy check/fold.

Husker

[SaintAces]

...

[ThePopinjay]

Very. A 2.5x-4x raise here is acceptable. I'm leaning towards 2.5x because being in EP it should keep a lot of people out. If you get reraised a substantial amount you have not raised too much so you can easily lay it down.

[ddubois]

The thing is, if you raise 3bb on level one, you still get like 4 callers. Hardly anyone even blinks at 60 chips. When I raise with anything less than KK, I'd rather everyone just fold.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if you raise 3bb on level one, you still get like 4 callers. Hardly anyone even blinks at 60 chips. When I raise with anything less than KK, I'd rather everyone just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this, a $5+1?

eastbay

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if you raise 3bb on level one, you still get like 4 callers. Hardly anyone even blinks at 60 chips. When I raise with anything less than KK, I'd rather everyone just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


What is this, a $5+1?

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily, but it IS a Party Poker tourney.

[Girazze]

I think without any help on the flop, you should check to the power. The two calls to your preflop raise told me they had medium pair, low pair, AQ or AJ. CO folded after your T200 raise because he most likely had close to what you have....AQ or AJ. The reraise from the button told me he hit his set or he had A9 and paired the 9. Don't think he would have hung in there with A3 or A4 and seeing you bet T200 postflop. I would have folded after the button reraise.

[ThePopinjay]

Your thinking's off here. You shouldn't want to take down every single hand you play in, because it's just not possible. If you raise that 3xBB you should be happy to limit the field, which I know for a fact it will. The people who call probably have lesser hands than you, another thing that you should be happy about. You're equity in the hand is probably the highest, meaning that you're the most likely to take down the hand, but the board will dictate whether or not thats true.

And like I said already, I would not like to call a re-raise here, and with so little of your stack committed, you don't "have" to call at all.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if you raise 3bb on level one, you still get like 4 callers. Hardly anyone even blinks at 60 chips. When I raise with anything less than KK, I'd rather everyone just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


What is this, a $5+1?

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily, but it IS a Party Poker tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the norm at $55 and above. Play is quite tight early.

eastbay

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if you raise 3bb on level one, you still get like 4 callers. Hardly anyone even blinks at 60 chips. When I raise with anything less than KK, I'd rather everyone just fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your problem is that you are committing so much of your stack on this hand. If the stacks are deeper that's one thing, but these stacks are small. A 3-4x bet should be fine here. Just play a little more careful postflop.

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont agree that it is weak tight to limp here. often at the first few levels in EP it is the correct play. if you raise and are reraised you have to fold even if players are loosely reraising and your hand is too good. it is correct to raise only if there is some chance you will win the blinds or make it heads up. if neither of those two things will happen, and at the first level this is often the case, then raising is wrong.

the problem here is that there are certain rules that players feel they must follow and do so regardless of the situation. for example, when i was playing stud ofetn you are in a situation where you have a high pair heads up against a draw at lower limits. in this case teh standard advice is always to bet because you dont want to give a free card. but against a player who will never fold and who will sometimes raise to get a free card, checking is often correct on fourth street.

Pat

[triplc]

Maybe it depends upon the level you are playing (I'm typically at low-limit ($5-$10), but I would almost never raise from EP with AQ this early with a full table. It's problematic for a few reasons...

1. Even at a low limit, it's usually behind to a reraise. And early, you don't know if the player who's reraising is a nut, or a good player...so it's hard to come out charging at a reraise even against a nut early.

2. If you get a caller (or callers, as in this case) what does that mean? Usually I would read is as a small or middle pair trying to hit trips or a small flop like this one. It could be a really big hand, though.

3. With 100 in the pot...it's a lot harder to simply check and fold to a bet after the flop misses...which is exactly what I want to do early on here. If it checks around, or if someone makes a very small bet...then I hang around for the turn.

As for "representing"...betting 200 into a 300 pot is not what I'd call representing...bet the pot or check-raise.

Finally, the call of the reraise is just plain awful, which you've recognized. You took your shot...and missed. Fold it and move on.

CCC

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
As for "representing"...betting 200 into a 300 pot is not what I'd call representing...bet the pot or check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
The whole thing about bet sizes and what they represent or don't represent still mystifies me. Even if I have KK here, I'm not sure how much to bet. I would be worried that 325 would get everyone to fold, when I would really like some callers. I would probably would bet 200 with KK here as well, but I guess that tidbit of information is meaningless unless it's also known to my opponents (via an unlikely read I guess), isn't it?

Right or wrong, I'm too scared to risk check-raise here; I see too many flops check around and this board has straight-draw potential. Also, I'm worried they would make an emotional decision and "incorrectly" call once they've put money in (just like I did!)

[HUSKER'66]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont agree that it is weak tight to limp here. often at the first few levels in EP it is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I don't agree with a limp here.....A/Q offsuit UTG or even A/K for that matter do not do well in a multi way pot. These types of hands have much greater success with one or two callers.

I recommended 4 x BB because that is the raise that I personally use for any hand that I'm plan on raising with preflop. I realize that it is the standard raise that you see in NL tourny situations, but for me it helps disguise my holdings. I might have AA,KK,QQ,JJ,T/T, A/K suited or off, A/Qs, A/Js, suited connectors with position, a blind steal yada yada yada. I realize that I may be giving my opponents too much credit for paying attention /images/graemlins/smirk.gif but I want to make it as hard as possible to put me on a hand. I surely don't want to give anyone a "tell" by the amount I raise. There are a lot of players that vary the amounts of their PF raises by what they feel is the relative strength of their hands. I don't always take this to heart, but I do pay attention esp if they go to showdown and I see what they held. I then make a small note as to position etc and look back over this info to help make a better read when I need it. If I see this same player in another tourny making the same moves I put a little more weight on it. It is of course not 100% accurate but what tell is?

Just my thoughts,

Husker

[triplc]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be worried that 325 would get everyone to fold, when I would really like some callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've misspoken here, but with AQ you really want that pot right now (you're bluffing here most of the time). If you're talking about the KK scenario, that is a very vulnerable hand as well. The question I would ask is...is this a hand I would slowplay. In NL, there are very few hands that you should do this with. AQ that misses and KK with no K on the flop are not slowplaying hands unless you are in dire need of chips and need to gamble a bit. Thus, I don't want to bet only 100 or 200 because it might just let people draw "correctly".

[ QUOTE ]
Right or wrong, I'm too scared to risk check-raise here; I see too many flops check around and this board has straight-draw potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I'm confused. With AQ, I want this to check around. That tells me that either someone has a relatively weak hand and didn't want to play it, or a monster and I still haven't committed any more chips to this pot. With KK, I don't (read very rarely) check-raise, because I'm betting this flop to take it down right now.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm worried they would make an emotional decision and "incorrectly" call once they've put money in (just like I did!)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what you want them to do. Poker is about making correct decisions yourself and forcing others to make incorrect ones. If you feel you have the best hand, you MUST make other players "incorrectly" make bad calls. That's how you win in the long run. If they then hit their hand anyway, that's just short-run luck (and poker).

Again, I might be confusing things because of the AQ vs. KK ideas here...but in either case, if I'm betting here, I'm betting to take down the pot right now. With AQ, I'm bluffing at it. With KK, I'm protecting my hand.

CCC

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would be worried that 325 would get everyone to fold, when I would really like some callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've misspoken here, but with AQ you really want

[/ QUOTE ]

I said: "Even if I have KK here, I'm not sure how much to bet. I would be worried that 325 would get everyone to fold, when I would really like some callers. I would probably would bet 200 with KK here as well...", so the rest of your post is difficult to parse. Yes, I was talking about KK. In the second paragraph I was talking about AQ again. Sorry for the confusion.

With KK, I want worse hands to call. I want people to make incorrect calls to chase their 3 outter ace. In fact, I would love if it if three people all chased their one ace out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

With missed overcards, obviously I want everyone to fold.

The thing I don't get is, if I bet enough that it looks like I want everyone to fold, would they be more inclined to call? If I bet alot, doesn't it look like I am trying to "buy the pot"? If I bet a smaller, median amount, doesn't it look like I want callers? Therefore, if I want people to fold, I should bet the amount that makes it look like I want callers? Or should I always bet the same amount, so that no one can tell what I am trying to do? Am I just confusing myself? Like I said, the whole "bet size and what they represent" area mystifies me.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm worried they would make an emotional decision and "incorrectly" call once they've put money in (just like I did!)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what you want them to do. Poker is about making correct decisions yourself and forcing others to

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry again. I was talking about AQ here. That's why I used quotation marks aroudn incorrectly. My check-raise might represent KK, in which case their call is incorrect, but when I am bluffing, their call is correct even if they have no reason to think it is. Does this make sense? So while with KK I have no fear about someone getting pissed off that I check-raised and calling me down, with a missed AQ that fear is acute. I would rather bet out with AQ than with KK, even if my check-raise "should" more convincingly represent my AQ as KK.

The more I type on this subject, the dumber I feel.

[durron597]

I wouldn't take a stab with AQ into a three way flop and two preflop callers of a big raise. One of them almost certainly has a big PP, I check-fold this on the flop. I like your preflop play, though.

Edit: Limping is good here too. You aren't suited, and you are out of position. You can easily fold this to a big raise after you, and if it gets checked you can play cautiously on the flop. Though I wouldn't limp here if you don't think you can lay down TPTK if the pot has too much action.

[adanthar]

Okay, as usual this week, people are saying to fold or limp AQ in EP. I have no idea where this new trend is coming from and as far as I'm concerned, your PF action is fine. (One of the reasons my typical raise is 75 is to keep the pot smaller so my flop near autobet is not such a big chunk of my stack...but whatever, close enough.)

My problem is your flop action. The bet is fine and I normally make it...but you're raised. Okay, he can beat my overcards. *I am officially done with the hand at this point*. T500 is more than enough to come back from; T300 is not (and for all you know, he has A9/KK and you're drawing to 3 outs you don't know about.) Fold when you're raised and wait for the next one.

[Prickly Pete]

What is the goal of raising preflop EP with AQo in the first round? By that, I mean what sort of opposing hands and flops are you hoping for? If you're playing with folks that will call these raises with AJ or less, then by all means go for it. Otherwise I don't see where the upside is.

[betgo]

I would raise less, regardless of how the table is playing. With the big raise, you either pick up the blinds or commit yourself out of position.

You could check the flop and see how things develop. You would have the possibility of checkraising or betting the turn. Obviously, if you check and there is a decent size bet with a call or a raise, you should fold.

You might be better to fold to the raise on the flop.

[betgo]

The other problem is that if the table is playing loose enough to call the megaraise preflop, they may call your flop bet with high cards. The book move is the semibluff bet, but I am not sure it is good against these kind of players.

If your opponents are not loose, and are calling the big raise because they have big hands, one of them probably has a decent pocket pair, and is not going to fold easily with that flop.