Open raising the button

[J_V]

Rank the hands you would most want to have against average blinds in a full game.

9-8o
A-4o
A-9o
Q-Jo
KJs
77
22

I rank them

KJs
77
QJo
A-9o
98o
A-4o
22

Any of these way off?

The crux of my ranking being that having the Ace is not very necessary for most Ace high boards (this is especially true as you hit the tough 30-60 and 1-2 games online, IMO)

[James282]

I would put A4o in front of 98o because it decreases the chance that my opponent has an ace, when most opponents will go to the river with ace high against what looks like a blind steal. Otherwise, you are right on.
-James

[Tommy Angelo]

Rank the hands you would most want to have against average blinds in a full game.

9-8o
A-4o
A-9o
Q-Jo
KJs
77
22
---------------

I would rank them like this:

77
22
A9
A4
KJ
QJ
98


Tommy

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rank them like this:

77
22
A9
A4
KJ
QJ
98

[/ QUOTE ]

Ranked according to their true hand strength. Imagine that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'd have to agree with Tommy's assessment.

[J_V]

If you believe 22 is second in true strength, you should stop check out a simulator versus random hands.

[Warik]

A9 needs to improve. 22 does not.

pokenum -h ad 9c - 2d 2c
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9c Ad 808836 47.24 893032 52.15 10436 0.61 0.475
2c 2d 893032 52.15 808836 47.24 10436 0.61 0.525

We're talking headsup with the SB or BB who could be holding any two cards, not a raised multiway pot with a bunch of solid, aggressive players.

22 will win heads up against A9o 52% of the time. Give me 22.

Edit: Same deal goes for KJ, A4, QJ, etc... the only other hand here that does not need to improve is 77 which is better than 22.... which is why I'd rank it 1st.

[bugstud]

It's not showdown poker though...many of these suckers end on the flop or turn, so 22 holds a lot less value than a hand you can semibluff profitably with, which is I believe J_V's arguement.

[Warik]

You would not be bluffing or semibluffing with 22 though. If your bluff is called it is likely you still have the best hand. If it's raised you could toss it with confidence and save some bets, no?

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
If you believe 22 is second in true strength, you should stop check out a simulator versus random hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

On paper, 22 wins its fair share heads up.

The problem with a hand like 22 is seeing it through to a showdown.

True, heads up, 22 is a slight favorite over AK (or any two overcards). Unfortunately, we don't know what our opponent's overcards are. So the flop comes J96, and we're looking at three overcards. By the river, we're going to be looking at five overcards. It can become very problematic.

[Gabe]

I agree with you ranking, but the A4o 22 and 98o are close and I might rank them differently, depending on who the blinds were specifically. Actually, now that I look at it the 77 QJo and the A9o are close, too, but I like your raking, I think.

I like being able to represent the A and have two other big cards to catch.

[turnipmonster]

77
A9
A4
22
KJ
QJ
98

vs. one player, the suitedness of your cards really hardly matters at all. I think suited hands do something like 2% better than the same offsuit hands heads up. also, I think connectors are basically garbage heads up. versus loose blinds I think my rankings change somewhat. heads up, with any pair and most Ace highs I am locked to the river, definitely seeing a showdown.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

what's the problem with seeing a showdown with 22? I think you should be seeing a showdown with almost any pair heads up. your opponent will often be value betting A high the whole way.

--turnipmonster

[J_V]

This is child's play. KJs does better against 1 or 2 random hands then 22. Duh. The fact that 22 is 52% against A9o doesn't mean jack.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
On paper, 22 wins its fair share heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are asking the wrong questions too, I believe. 22 may be 50/50 against most hands. KJs is much better than 50/50 against most hands.

But yes 22 plays like crapola.

[J_V]

It's tough. I am not sure about 98o, A4o and 22's order either.

I think I got the two clumps right though. Maybe I'm overexaggerating the non ace hands point too much.

I'm shocked at how far off some people have been thus far w/ their comments, rankings, and analysis.

[ZeeJustin]

Here is how I rank them:
77
A9o
KJs
----
A4o
22
QJo
98o

I think valuing any hand below the dash greater than any of the hands above the line is attrocious. I can't believe people are putting A4o ahead of KJs here.

[turnipmonster]

after more thought I agree. KJ should fare better than A4 in a confrontation like this. that's what I get for being stupid /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--turnipmonster

[OrangeHeat]

77
KJs
A9
A4
QJ
22
98

Edit: Dumb commentary removed.

[JoeU]

I've actually sat here for 15 minutes and discussed this question with my wife (well, forced her to listen to me as I talked this out). My conclusions are based on the fact that you will most likely get heads up in this situation because most "normal" players will not call 2 cold with a marginal holding. Thus, you can expect the SB to fold and get heads up with the BB. In a heads up situation, you want hands that can survive without improvement against a random holding. Thus, my list would be:

77
22
A9o
A4o
KJs
QJo
98o

Joe

[dm34]

With the 2s, you will almost never be better than a very small favorite (52-48 or so). With KJs or A9o, if you are against two unpaired undercards, you are a huge favorite.

What are you guys thinking?

[Tommy Angelo]

"I'm shocked at how far off some people have been thus far w/ their comments, rankings, and analysis."

I know exactly how you feel.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
With KJs or A9o, if you are against two unpaired undercards, you are a huge favorite.

What are you guys thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking that I'd rather be betting or calling down headsup against a random hand with a made hand than with nothing.

KJ alone is nothing. KJ alone cannot beat ace high. KJ alone cannot beat KQ. KJ alone cannot beat AK.

22 alone can beat KJ alone. It can beat anything KJ alone can beat... and it can beat some things that KJ cannot beat.

In a no fold'em headsup situation, 22 will show a long run profit over every unpaired, unsuited set of cards. If you put 22 against the best unpaired suited cards, AKs, then 22 will show a long run headsup profit over AKs as long as one of your cards is of the same suit as the AK.

If the goal here is to make decisions that will result in a long run profit, then I can't imagine why you'd prefer unpaired hole cards to paired hole cards.

One poster said: "I like being able to represent the A and have two other big cards to catch."

Precisely - CATCH! If you don't catch a pair on the flop, you are the underdog.

If you have KJ vs. your opponent's 22, you have 6 outs 6.8:1 to hit on the turn, slightly better for the river assuming you don't have any straight draws or flush draws. You will never have those odds headsup unless it's capped preflop (which it won't be with 22 vs. AK). This means you're drawing without the proper odds and you are slowly losing money.

Sure, I'd much rather try to steal with KJ and end up with a king high or jack high flop. At least after reading this post I know that if I whiff on the flop I can go ahead and play aggressively anyway since I might be up against one of you guys holding 22 who are deathly afraid of a 4 7 T rainbow flop.

I'm not trying to be irrationally argumentative here and I don't claim to know everything, but if you want to convince me and everybody else who doesn't agree with you that KJ is going to win more headsup in the longrun than 22 you will have to do a better job than saying "you can bluff better with KJ!" Of course you can bluff better with KJ... you can't bluff when you actually have a hand!

[Steve Giufre]

The fact that people consider 22 to be better then A9 in this spot is a bit fishy. I understand 22 does not need to improve to win the pot a lot of the time, but neither does A9. Agaist a single blind, both hands will have the same showdown value unimproved, except on the rare occations that one of the blinds have exactly AK AQ AJ A10. So if it goes check check on the river, you win about the same amount of the time with both hands when niether you or your oppenent have improved. But with the A9 you will make your hand much more often, giving it an advantage over the 22, where you will only flop a set once every 8 times or so. The botton line is head up agaist one blind, they have roughly the same unimproved showdown value, but the A9 plays much better postflop because it improves much more often.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand 22 does not need to improve to win the pot a lot of the time, but neither does A9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against 22, A9 needs to improve ***EVERY*** time.

[ QUOTE ]
But with the A9 you will make your hand much more often, giving it an advantage over the 22, where you will only flop a set once every 8 times or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasoning is flawed because it assumes that 22's opponent will always make a pair on the flop, turn, or river - which it most certainly will not.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=368848
pokenum -h 2s 2d - ac 9d
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2s 2d 900004 52.56 802474 46.87 9826 0.57 0.528
Ac 9d 802474 46.87 900004 52.56 9826 0.57 0.472

A9 will make its hand 802,474 times. 22 will not need to 900,004 times.

[dm34]

You don't understand. Who said the 22 and A9 would be heads up? Against a random hand, A9 performs far better.

[Steve Giufre]

Warik,

We are talking about open raising the button assuming you are playing agaist one random hand from a single blind defender. Why are you taking A9, and seeing how it plays specifically agiast 22? That has nothing to do with my post or J V's post. My argument is that the A9 will play better agaist the blind defender than the 22, assuming we dont know what the blind is holding.

[Steve Giufre]

nm

[dm34]

Here are the chances of winning against a random hand:

77 - 66.2%
KJs - 62.5%
A9o - 60.7%
QJo - 58.1%
A40 - 56.7%
22 - 50.3%
98o - 48.1%

http://rwa.homelinux.net/poker/hand-rankings.html

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Warik,

We are talking about open raising the button assuming you are playing agaist one random hand from a single blind defender. Why are you taking A9, and seeing how it plays specifically agiast 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought we were comparing the hands against each other, hence the ranking.

[Glenn]

77
KJs
gap
QJo
A9o
gap
98o
A4o
22

[dm34]

Wrong. No more guessing. I posted the correct answers.

[J_V]

As you play more and more of these situations, you will see that your rankings don't fly.

[J_V]

I'm gonna keep it short, because you don't seem to be paying attention, but KJs does better against random hands than 22.

[J_V]

Nice work douche /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Except 77 is in the wrong place.

Remind me not to take advice from someone who prides himself on winning w/ dominated hands.

[J_V]

Some of us like tight asses.
Some of us like big tits.
Some of us like cute legs.
Some of us like a pretty face.

Some of us like pocket pairs.

To each his own /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Michael Davis]

I'm glad douche as an insult is underused. It still has some force, and is one of my favorites. It also plays better than 22 heads up.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

In the $8-16 game I've been playing regularly, I believe the ranking is:

77
KJs
A9o
A4o
22
QJo
98o

However, I believe in the games you are playing, your frequent discussion about playing aces and when an ace flops versus when it doesn't flop applies much more. In my games, I think people are more likely to stick around inexplicably with complete trash, which makes the hands that I can feel confident betting when checked to, namely ace hands and pairs, more valuable.

I would generally fold 98o here. Am I wrong?

-Michael

[Schneids]

77
KJs
A9o
QJo
A4o
98o
22


I think 98o can be bumped up in value if against predictable, straight forward, unthinking blinds -- in example the type that will see an ace high flop and automatically fold almost anything when you bet since they assume you have an ace, or the type that will see an 8-high flop and assume you missed since you raised PF.

[Steve Giufre]

And some guys are just great hand readers. I'm sure thats the case with Tommy, which more than makes up for the fact that he likes 22 more than A9 on the button.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

KJs
Q-Jo
A-9o
77
A-4o
9-8o
22

I also don''t rake the ace hands that high. The KJ and QJ make decent hands often if they pair. I'd rather have the 77 than the A4 but not the A9, since A9 makes two higher pairs. I don't care that much for the A4o, but it's better than 98. I don't like the 22 at all, so I ranked it lowest.

[ACPlayer]

This is one strange thread people.

Anybody here play texas hold em?

[J_V]

Ha, I knew I posted some stuff wasted last night. I was sort've cringing at what it might have been.

At least everything was only marginally inappropriate.

[Glenn]

When you grow up maybe you'll understand that there's a difference between showdown winning % and EV.

[J_V]

KJs is just so much better than 22 on the button against the blinds, I don't believe any player on earth can do better w/ it.

Even the guy who invented the pocket pair could not play them well enough to overcome the mathematical and playing edges of KJs.

I believe Tommy's perceived value of 22 is too high, even if he likes playing it better.

[Glenn]

I play 77 better than you. In fact, that statement is true with or without the 77.

[Steve Giufre]

n

[J_V]

These stats show why KJs is so much better than 77. If you take aways the worst hands....23,24,25,26,34, etc....KJs narrows the deal much more (as 77 has a huge edge against these hands that ARENT defending) and then you add in the ease of playing KJs and it's not even that close. It also show that 22 is the worst IMO.

I'm not sure if 98o is better than A4o absed on these numbers. It's probably very close when ease of play is factored in.

This also suggest QJo is better than A9o.

[Clarkmeister]

This is a silly thread. If it is folded to me on the button, I raise all the hands listed, unless the blinds are loose, in which case I fold the 89o. It doesn't matter that I would have preferred the dealer give me KJs instead of A4o.

[1800GAMBLER]

Yet it's still interesting to discuss the strengths of each one compared to the others for the times you get KJ or 22 or A4o on the CO-1.

[Glenn]

The point, which in all of your wisdom you somehow missed, is that the value of these hands is dependant on your plan with them postflop. The dynamics of postflop play in a blind steal situation is a major issue. Given the bizarre nature of some of the responses, it is apprently something many people don't understand. Instead of writing a 100 page essay on this, the legendary JV decided to submit it in it's simple form. If my rankings are different than JV's, then he is playing the hands he ranks lower poorly postflop.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

The point, which in all of your wisdom you somehow missed,

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully understand the point. I just don't see how it's of any real use.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet it's still interesting to discuss the strengths of each one compared to the others for the times you get KJ or 22 or A4o on the CO-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you say so. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ike]

Yah, this isn't real complicated. Pull out a KJs then deal out a random opposing hand and a 5 card board. Repeat a thousand times. Do it again with deuces. KJ wins more hands.
Add to this the fact that KJ plays better and the fact that KJ will likely win more money when it wins and its not close. But even if you just run them hot and cold against random hands KJs is better.

[J_V]

I don't see it that way at all. Of course all should be raised. But it's more of a discussion of thinking about poker theory and how hands do in certain situations. Isn't that what this forum is about. Everything in this thread, I would consider extremely relevant.

And many of the posters made some obvious logical fallacies.

[J_V]

77 cannot be ahead of KJs. No way, no how. Thow out the 10% of the worst hands and KJs is a mathematical and playing favorite.

But otherwise point well taken.

[ike]

I agree with Glenn. It seems pretty incompetent to suppose that showdown value is equal to EV. For example, KJs will frequently fold hands where it could have hit a runner runner flush draw, pairs will fold when they could have hit trips etc. Nonace hands will win lots of pots where they represents an ace. I don't pretend to be good enough to say how important these things are, but you did not post THE CORRECT ANSWER. You posted very useful statistics without which its hard to talk about the question but the question is definetly still open.

[ike]

Also, your opponent does not have a random hand. He is folding a very significant percentage of them preflop. With at least some players this should change your rankings. To take an extreme example, if your opponent will defend his blind with only pairs 88 or better, 77 becomes terrible.

[ACPlayer]

The dynamics of postflop play in a blind steal situation is a major issue

If you want to talk about post flop play realize that different hands have different values depending on the player type. Against a tenacious player and good hand reader 22 is a better hand as you are more likely to go to showdown. Against a player who plays poorly and needs a hand to continue past the flop, it does not really matter what you have in your hand.

[Glenn]

"Against a tenacious player and good hand reader 22 is a better hand as you are more likely to go to showdown."

This is completely wrong. A good player is going to checkraise the hell out of you (and thus take control of the hand) when you raise his blind from the button. You are going to be forced to play big pots with a crappy hand, and you can't really tell when you are ahead or behind. And when you are behind, he always has 6 outs...often 10+.

"Against a player who plays poorly and needs a hand to continue past the flop, it does not really matter what you have in your hand. "

A lot of poor players don't need a hand to continue past the flop, and they are often right to do so when you have 22. Against a rare weak-tight player, the KJs is still better. When they have nothing, you will take down the pot unimproved with both hands. When they have something, they will pay of when you make a hand with the KJs. If you miss, you can take a free card if you want, since they won't put pressure on you.

[Ulysses]

Folded to me on the button? El Diablo goes ALL-IN.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a tenacious player and good hand reader 22 is a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo does not like 22 at all against a tenacious player - why do you?

[DeeJ]

There's an episode of Seinfeld where there's a bloke that refers to himself continuously in the third person. DeeJ says this is a waste of typing especially if there's two capital letters to get right /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ACPlayer]

Against a tenacious player I am more likely to go to a showdown and hence want to be able to beat the range of hands (like hands with big cards) that he is likely to be playing.

Now, against a tenacious player you have to be more careful how you bet. I may choose to not autobet the flop against him and may choose to raise the turn or call down, depending on my recent play and my view of his play, the flop and any reads I may have.

The point being that when I am called by a player who will defend with some values (but a wide range of them) then I must either be willing to showdown the hand or fold the hand early. With 22 I can do both. With KJ I cant showdown the hand usually(I have to improve in some way).

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
With 22 I can do both. With KJ I cant showdown the hand usually(I have to improve in some way).

[/ QUOTE ]

KJ has just as much showdown value unimproved as 22 except v. Ace-high and KQ, right? That's why I don't think your point really holds v. a tenacious player who can play back at you post-flop w/ a very wide range of hands.

What percentage of time does KJ make a pair by the river? That seems like an interesting thing to know wrt this question.

[ACPlayer]

KJ has just as much showdown value unimproved as 22 except v. Ace-high and KQ, right

I disagree. A couple of simple examples, in each case I raise and am called by the BB.

1. Flop: Check, Check
Turn: Check, Check
River Bet -- I for one may call with 22 but will likely not call with KJ

2. Flop: bet, call
Turn: bet, call
River: bet

again same comment.

Essentially at least for me and the way people play against me (they check a lot for one thing) I now have the option of calling the river to snap off a persistent semibluffer or bluffer. With KJ I dont have that option.

Now, on reflection, I did think that in an online game I would prefer KJ as then my decision is usually whether to continue with my pair draw as the amount of information about the player in online games is much less and there is more tendency of players to bluff and bet. But then, I prefer my poker in a B&M room.

[Ulysses]

I now have the option of calling the river to snap off a persistent semibluffer or bluffer. With KJ I dont have that option.

Here's where we disagree. KJ really does almost as well v. a bluff as 22. Sure, sometimes they have Ace-high or KQ, but many will more often check the Ace-high. Also, if they have Ace-high or KQ, the hand may well play differently early. In heads-up situations, King-high has a lot of showdown value.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I now have the option of calling the river to snap off a persistent semibluffer or bluffer. With KJ I dont have that option.

Here's where we disagree. KJ really does almost as well v. a bluff as 22. Sure, sometimes they have Ace-high or KQ, but many will more often check the Ace-high. Also, if they have Ace-high or KQ, the hand may well play differently early. In heads-up situations, King-high has a lot of showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's a case in point hand that doesn't come up too often but with the right read KJ is a powerhouse.

on my left in the sb (10 game) was a man who played in a predictable manner. he tried to get his opponent to FOLD when he had a draw, call on the later streets when he had a relative monster, and just bet and then call a raise and call down with a decent 1 or 2 pair hand. there is no question in my mind about these reads.

all fold to me on the button with KcJc. i raise, sb calls bb folds.

T88rb w/ 1 club flops. he bets out. this means EITHER a ten and i'm behind and drawing or a draw he wants me to fold...only one way to find out, i raise. he 3bets. NOW i KNOW he has either J9, 97, 96, 67, QJ, or Q9. all of which i'm ahead of so i cap, he calls. turn comes 2c. perfect. i have a flush draw and its a blank and i'm still in the lead w/ king high. he bets out into the capper, must be a higher card draw so i put him on J9, Q9, QJ and raise again. he calls.

river is a 5. he checks i check he shows QJo and i scoop this nice pot w/ kj high.

KJ has good showdown value against straight draws like that and if you find somebody who'll play'em like that you're in good shape.

but otherwise other posters' comments are correct in that its like 22 in some ways. but all in all your steals' post flop action will be highly dependant on player reads so cards sometimes don't matter.

-Barron

[Boris]

A-9o
K-Js
Q-Jo
77
A-4o
9-8o
22

[J.A.Sucker]

A9o > KJs > 77 > QJo > 98o > A4o > 22

[Nomar]

Would the rankings be the same in a 4 handed game ?

Depending on the blinds I would muck 22, A4 and 89 UTG four handed, but never KJ.