3 betting question.

[J_V]

You are in the BB against a very good player who is a little more aggressive than your average Party chump on the button.

All folded to him and he raises on the button.
Sb folds.

Rank these hands in order:

33
J-10s
KJo
A-7s
A-10o
88


Which do you fold, call or 3-bet.

My answers to follow.

[Zele]

I 3-bet everything but 33, which I fold.

Rank:
88
ATo
KJo
JTs
A7s
33

This assumes he is not a super-loose caller. Otherwise JTs becomes a call and drops below A7s.

[J_V]

I only fold 33 and I think calling is a small error against a very good player.

Hands I would most like to have:

Tier one KJo - 3 bet almost always
A-10o - 3 bet 80%
Tier two

J-10s - 3 bet almost always
88 - 3 bet almost always

Tier 3
A7s - 3 bet 50% or so


My belief is that the Ace high boards are going to end w/out a fight unless someone has an Ace. If that's the case, why do I need an ace in my hand. You might try to argue that the Ace can win unimproved, but as Ikke once told me, "it's a long way to the river." Hence, I'd much rather 3 bet two high non ace cards and be playing a 3 card hand...(same goes for the button - this topic has been discussed in John Feeney thread before I believe).

I like calling more often w/ the ace more often and check-raising many flops (greatly increasing my chances of making it to the end when I do this). This makes it harder on good button hand readers, IMO.

As for 3 betting the 88 (I should have used 55 as the example as 88 is too strong, I think it's imperative not because these hands are in all that good of good shape, but because the hand will play so much better than if you 3 bet.


I may be way off here, but I find my success in these scenarios improved ten-fold when I got away from some of the hot and cold analysis of - I have an Ace (and that's probably the best hand) so I have to 3 bet, nonsense. I also found ranking these hand very hard for me.

[Diplomatdcm]

I would 3 bet 88, ATo and KJo
Call 33, JTs and A7s
I don't think you can really fold any of these preflop, if he is as aggressive as you say, I assume he is raiseing hands like K9o, any Ace, QTo, and some other garbage. IF he is a little tighter than this i might muck A7s, but that is still questionable.
Dave

[Diplomatdcm]

I agree about 3 betting 55 not because i am making money preflop but because, like you said, it is easier to know where you are at postflop. Also, I like calling an A, generally, because the bad players will not give you credit for it and you will get moer action on an A high flop.
Dave

[James282]

Hey J_V, that's a great point about non-ace hands heads up.
-James

[turnipmonster]

great post, especially the 3 card hand part. Is you A high board reasoning the only reason you would 3 bet JTs? my initial reaction is to call, because I will be checking almost any flop with it, either to raise or fold.

--turnipmonster

[J_V]

Yes, I'm much more interested in 3-betting non-ace hands prelop so I can win the Ace-high board battles.

When the board is Ace high and neither player has anything, the player w/ momentum wins the pot. Very few players play cat and mouse in full games into the Ace high boards.

Many HU players do however, so this is not quite as effective there.

[turnipmonster]

yeah, that's what I figured. very good point/strategy. I am wondering also about the value of suited cards vs. offsuit cards in this spot. in these situations, in the past I have felt that suitedness adds only a very small edge and have pretty much discounted it for these type of situations (heads up vs. button or blind).

but your distinctions in these two threads have made me rethink that somewhat. obviously you somewhat prefer suited cards, but would you say you have a very strong preference in these situations?

--turnipmonster

[Steve Giufre]

I was thinking about something similar the other day. I'm not positive a hand like AJ out of the BB agaist a tricky button raiser is easier to play postflop after 3 betting preflop. The reason being is that you will find yourself with a difficult decision on the turn quite a bit of the time.

What I mean is, if you do miss the flop, and the board does not come all the ragged, you'll be in a tough spot on the turn without position a decent portion of the time.

Take three flops, say they are all rainbow.

10 8 6

Q 9 8

K 7 2

A tricky player on the button will call a lot of flop bets having raised the button, just to see if you are gonna follow through on the turn. When you get smooth called on flops where you miss, but the board is not ragged to the point where you feel really confident about your hand, he is gonna have you in a tough spot. If you lead on the turn again, he will probably only call when he is ahead, and if you check, he may take the pot away from you with a worse hand. I dont mind playing the hand from the other side of it, just calling preflop. You get to under represent your holding preflop, so you'll probably punish him more when you do make you hand. You can still call him down when the board come with a bunch of bricks if he is an aggresive player, and you dont put yourself in a spot where you feel you need to lead at every street just because you put in the three bet.

As a few of you pointed out, I would also probably be more likely to 3 bet some thing like J10s or JK, because then over representing your hand becomes more important, and you get to represent the ace when it hits the board.

[slavic]

You always prefer suited but ultimatly high card or pair strength is what your looking for. If you have to show down, which you will about 1/3 of the time, you need something to show.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I'm much more interested in 3-betting non-ace hands prelop so I can win the Ace-high board battles.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo feels that this strategy is a little played out against tougher players. Therefore, El Diablo takes a line of call pre-flop and checkraise or bet/3-bet the flop more often than many opponents. This often results in El Diablo more credibly being able to represent a hand when that's what he wants to do and get more money in the pot when that's what he wants to do.

[ QUOTE ]
When the board is Ace high and neither player has anything, the player w/ momentum wins the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, someone played out v. tough opponents, but an important point in general nonetheless.

[ QUOTE ]
Very few players play cat and mouse in full games into the Ace high boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, El Diablo enjoys cat and mouse games, but perhaps he's a bit of an exception.

[ QUOTE ]
Many HU players do however, so this is not quite as effective there.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo feels like a number of the strategies often seen in HU matches are now starting to get a little more common in shortish full-game situations.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You are in the BB against a very good player who is a little more aggressive than your average Party chump

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo believes the very good player specification here is quite important.

88 - 3-bet almost always
A-10o - 3-bet most of the time
KJo - 3-bet most of the time
A-7s - usually call, sometimes 3-bet
33 - usually call, sometimes 3-bet
J-10s - almost always call

El Diablo chooses not to discuss his reasoning and post-flop strategy w/ each hand at this point.