Straight+Flush-draw + Overcards HU

[Trix]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

-Opponent is very loose, passive and weak(He will slow down fast). He chase nothing and calls down with J high. He play s Qx in EP. (It´s the same guy who was SB in hand one and UTG in hand two in the other post)


Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero...

Flop action and plan for the rest of the hand ?

[Guido]

With 15-21 outs I'm betting out and 3-bet when he raises.

Guido

[Trix]

What makes you think that he will raise ?

[Guido]

The 3-bet preflop?

[Trix]

He is very weak and I think he fears my play.

[Guido]

When you are sure he wouldn't raise then I check-raise.

[Jeffage]

I would get as much money in now as possible. I'd checkraise the flop and 4-bet if reraised. Whatever you think gets the most money in the pot now, do it.

Jeff

[ElSapo]

Trix - Given the description, I'd checkraise here and bet the turn no matter what falls. You have a plethora of outs and may win it on the turn unimproved.

But the real question is, do you have a plethora of gifts?

[Trix]

You really think a guy who chases "nothing" (thats the best way to describe his play as I had no idea what he was hoping to hit in some of the prior hands. Maybe 6 outers to 5 outers...) and calls the river with J high will fold here ?
I´m not sure my definition of weak(weak-loose, not weak-tight as I think you mistake this for) is right. For me it´s someone who will slow down fast, wont raise and fold to a 3bet and such. Maybe timid is a better word?.

[Trix]

I thought I was better off check-calling against this guy as there was no chance of winning this without a showdown.
I also wanted to be able to get more than one bet in on one of the expensive streets if I hit.

What I forgot to think about was whether he would check the turn through though, so I guess check-raising the flop and checking the turn if I missed would have been the best play, unless he might check the flop through...
Most players, even weak-timid onces bets this flop HU after 3betting preflop right ?

Anyways, I check-called. Turn was 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and he checked it through /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
River: 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, I bet and he called with KK.

[ElSapo]

Hey Trix... With this hand and this many outs, I'd still check-raise the flop and probably bet the turn unless I got three-bet on the flop and then I'd check-call the turn, unless I hit, in which case I'd bet out and hope he raised.

Given the description (I looked again), I guess you're right about not winning this on the turn or even w/o a showdown. However another benefit of the flop check-raise, depending on just how far he slows down once you show agression, is that should you decide to check-call the turn you may see it go check-check.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I also wanted to be able to get more than one bet in on one of the expensive streets if I hit.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you can get multiple bets on the flop, this negates an extra bet on a big street. Along with the fact, you will be possibly putting in 2 big bets when you're a dog rather than when you're the favorite. On the flop, you're ahead. On the turn, if you dont improve, your drawing. Which spot would you rather jam this hand against a preflop 3 bettor?

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I was better off check-calling against this guy as there was no chance of winning this without a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice weak tight thinking. I'd have c/r this flop, if i checked. You're ahead of any pair he may have. You're even ahead of 2 pair. I'd much rather bet out, then 3 bet a raise. Preflop 3 bettors also like to raise flops, not just bet when checked to. This is getting the money in when you have the best of it. You don't only make money when you drag the pot, you make it during the hand. Failing to get money in on the flop in this spot is terrible, imo. There is no reason to get tricky in this hand. It also really helps the odds when you miss on the turn.

I would then probably bet the turn, depending on my hand, id call a raise. If he capped the flop, id check call the turn if unimproved. If i hit my flush, i might even just smoothcall the turn raise and see if i can get another bet on the river.

I think you lost some bets on this hand. Especially longrunwise.

No offense, but the last couple hands you've posted have reaked of FPS.


Here's a hand i lost, and could care less about losing it. But it may give some ideas about making money during a hand.

I raise AQo in mp...

4 see the flop.

I flop an A on a disjointed board. I bet, only a blind calls. Actually, the blind may have bet and i raised. Anyways, I bet through the turn.

River card, something just kind of hits me, and i check behind. He hit his kicker on the river and dragged the pot. Ax. Here's the thing, he put in 2.5-3 bets with the worst of it. Heavily dominated and drawing slim. Then, when he hits his hand, he collected a big, fat ZERO in implied odds for chasing his 3 outer.

Even if he bet the river, which i'd have called, he isn't anywhere near making up for the amount he lost during the hand to get to the river to make his hand.

Sometimes it's not about just winning the pot at the end, it's about making money during the hand. That's where the longrun resides. Winning pots is the byproduct of playing well. Making the money during the hand, along with maximizing one's chances of winning in multiways, regardless of the showdown, is the meat and potatoes of holdem.

b

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can get multiple bets on the flop, this negates an extra bet on a big street. Along with the fact, you will be possibly putting in 2 big bets when you're a dog rather than when you're the favorite. On the flop, you're ahead. On the turn, if you dont improve, your drawing. Which spot would you rather jam this hand against a preflop 3 bettor?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the flop he will very likely just call. You wanna bet the turn then if you miss?
If I check-call, then I thought he would bet the turn aswell, alowing me to check-raise if I hit and just call again if I didn´t. I was wrong though as he checked kings behind.

If I had known this, then check-raising and betting the turn if I hit and checking if I miss is better.
He could check the flop through with overcards though. Then betting and checking turn if miss and betting if hit must be better ?

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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I thought I was better off check-calling against this guy as there was no chance of winning this without a showdown.


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Nice weak tight thinking. I'd have c/r this flop, if i checked. You're ahead of any pair he may have. You're even ahead of 2 pair. I'd much rather bet out, then 3 bet a raise. Preflop 3 bettors also like to raise flops, not just bet when checked to. This is getting the money in when you have the best of it. You don't only make money when you drag the pot, you make it during the hand. Failing to get money in on the flop in this spot is terrible, imo. There is no reason to get tricky in this hand. It also really helps the odds when you miss on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
This has nothing to do with weak thinking. I knew the hand was going to showdown, so every bet/raise I made must be for value.

This is getting the money in when you have the best of it

I know this, but sometimes waiting has higher expectation.

Say I check-raise and bet the turn then I loose 2BBs post when I miss and win 3 when I win. (if you dont bet river when you miss and you really shouldnt against this guy)
If I check-call and check-raise turn when I hit then I loose 1.5 when I miss and win 3.5 when I win.

However, my read was wrong as he checked behind on the turn.

Checking the river through in your AQ hand when a blank hits is weak though. Unless this is live, then you have no chance of knowing if he hit or not.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
This has nothing to do with weak thinking. I knew the hand was going to showdown, so every bet/raise I made must be for value.


[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about this hand is you mentioned it's going to showdown. So given the flop, that is where you will make money on the hand, for sure. Jam the hell out of it. You know if you miss the turn, you are then behind. If he jams the flop with you, he isnt folding anytime soon. If you bet, and he only calls, that's ok. If he raises, you will really love it.

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet the flop he will very likely just call. You wanna bet the turn then if you miss?


[/ QUOTE ]

If i miss the turn after the action on the flop, as you mentioned, he may check behind fearing a c/r. You said he'd slow down a bit.

But he is also a passive preflop 3 bettor. This is usually a very good hand. They will usually raise this on the flop, then go into a cave once raised. He most likely doesnt have just 'overcards'. They, many times wont 3 bet AKo. Remember your description of him.

Or, you check to him, he bets, you raise, he calls. You miss the turn, you check, he, fearing another c/r from a monster under the bed that they always seem to see, checks behind.

[ QUOTE ]
This is getting the money in when you have the best of it

I know this, but sometimes waiting has higher expectation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your highest expectation starts on the flop. It doesnt have to start when you have a made/locked hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Say I check-raise and bet the turn then I loose 2BBs post when I miss and win 3 when I win. (if you dont bet river when you miss and you really shouldnt against this guy)
If I check-call and check-raise turn when I hit then I loose 1.5 when I miss and win 3.5 when I win.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have to figure in the possibility of it being checked behind on the turn. Especially given your opponents make-up. Also, look at it in terms, since it's HU, of how many bets are going in, should you miss, when you are drawing versus when you are ahead on the flop.

You also dont mention c/r the flop, then checking the turn and the possibilities there in.

Let's say you c/r the flop, it gets checked through on the turn, you miss the river and check fold to a bet. You put 1BB in when you were in the lead postflop and none when you were behind.

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the river through in your AQ hand when a blank hits is weak though. Unless this is live, then you have no chance of knowing if he hit or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is weak. It was live. 95+% of the time im betting this river. My read and feel in this situation were dead on. This wasnt a textbook, ABC way to play the river. But that's beside the point.

My example was showing how you make money during a hand regardless of whether or not you win the pot. Especially in HU situations. You can do this with drawing hands just as easily. It helps offset the later streets where you are losing money on each additional bet that goes in. It's a great hedge in a HU situation. Like if you miss the turn. Even if he flopped a set, worst case, your even money on the flop. HU, the gaps to make money during a hand that isn't made, are narrower. So strike when the iron is hot. Especially when the foregone conclusion that is a known variable is that there will be a showdown, regardless of the turn and river.

This will also have a benefit on later hands when you flop a very strong, made hand and bet/jam the flop. It's that much extra wide of range they will have to deal with in your betting. On this hand, you could be jamming alot of different hands on the flop. Just the fact you are jamming a draw will boggle some of the passives. They just never get it about betting draws.

Strong players dont become passive on a flop like this. Passive players do. You don't need the 'made' hand to jam it.

About the only reason i can really see as to going to the turn is if you think you can put a move on the pot and maybe take it down. You took that possibility out with the opponent description. So, jam when you have it. On the flop, you have it.

b