Limping with ATo

[Trix]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

-UTG(11$ before this) is very loose and semi aggressive. So far I´ve seen 64o and Kx in this spot.

-SB is very loose, passive and weak(He will slow down fast). He chase nothing and calls down with J high. He play s Qx in EP.


Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls $5 (All-In).

River: (6.33 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds.

Final Pot: 7.33 BB


--------Edit------------

2) Same two players. Shortstacked guy is the second limper is this.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

River: (3.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

[Guido]

Could you explain to me why you didn't raise this preflop?

Guido

[Trix]

I wanted SB to come along and it would make it very easy to play.
Not sure if it was correct though.

[Saborion]

I think raising is the better choice. You *might* get it HU with that loose UTG fella. If you don't, SB is most likely paying $5 to come in with [censored], and you really don't mind that. Or?

[Joe826]

You gotta raise ATo in that position, why do you think the hand will be easier to play if SB comes along? Because the pot is protected some how? I think raising this preflop makes it MUCH easier to play, as is the case with raising in general. Not to mention the fact that you probably have the best hand at the moment..

[Trix]

If I raise, then I would probably have to bet both flop and turn, but if I limp I´m very unlikely to make any mistakes postflop.

The real question is whether the equity I give up preflop is worth it.

[Guido]

Why do you have to bet the flop and turn? I never get that part... Is somebody holding a gun to your head? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Guido

[Joe826]

I think you're a much better player than me, but IMO that's incredibly weak thinking. It's always easier to get away from a hand if you don't raise preflop, even when you shouldn't. ATo doesn't play well with others, and by just limping you're giving yourself a much greater chance to lose the hand to the BB/SB's worse hands.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to bet the flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because these guys will chase without looking at their cards ?

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
ATo doesn't play well with others, and by just limping you're giving yourself a much greater chance to lose the hand to the BB/SB's worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also very likely wont make any mistakes postflop.

I dont claim this to be the correct way of playing this hand. I posted it to find out if it was worth giving up some preflop equity in order to lower the chance of making mistakes postflop greatly and having your opponents make bigger mistakes postflop.

[Jeffage]

First hand is the easiest raise in the world preflop against one very loose limper. Your ace high could win without improving heads up...with more players in, it's more likely you have to hit to win. The hand is much easier to play heads up...get the trash out.

Jeff

[MarkD]

If you raise pre-flop here you really can't make a mistake. You put UTG all-in and see a showdown heads-up.

Even if UTG has chips I don't see how not raising allows you to not make mistakes post-flop while raising does. I raise here 100% of the time though so am willing to listen but I don't see any logical reason to think not raising makes this hand easier to play somehow.

[BottlesOf]

Can anyone construct a scenario where it is best to limp with ATo?

[me454555]

I think the limp is fine in this position. You mentioned that UTG is loose and so is SB. A raise probobly wont get it heads up so it looses a lot of value there. I think the pf raise looses a lot when the players are loose b/c they will most likely call your flop bet if they hit the flop at all. Against 2 opponents, thats a likely call by at least one.

I like limping here b/c it would encourage them to bet the flop w/somehing like 2nd pair or an A w/a weaker kicker than yours. It also makes the hand much easier to play post flop IMO.

[nepenthe]

In hand 2, I bet the flop.

[Ron]

Hi, hand 2 raise /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hand 1 with your read on players and your position RAISE /images/graemlins/grin.gif, but maybe you would have lost 1 sb.

[StellarWind]

Definitely raise hand 1 preflop. How can it be wrong? Very loose/semi-aggressive almost guarentees you have a better hand than UTG. That SB will call with anything is an especially good reason to raise because he is taking totally the worst of it. You haven't described BB yet, but why are you happy letting him play for free?

I don't understand how calling makes the hand easier to play. Raising often makes your problems go away before you realize they exist:

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, ...

I have no idea what you should do. If you had raised preflop BB might well have folded and this never comes up.

I never understood those who say that if you raise preflop you have to bet postflop. Yes it is often a good idea but that's hardly the same thing. When it's -EV to bet, don't bet. If it's +EV to bet, why are you complaining?

[mikewvp]

My personal opinion and I am open to criticism, fold hand 1 preflop. Hand two was played perfectly, unless there is a chance your opponents will fold I think it is incredibly stupid to semi bluff a draw, you want to see the cards for as cheaply as possible when drawing.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
My personal opinion and I am open to criticism, fold hand 1 preflop. Hand two was played perfectly, unless there is a chance your opponents will fold I think it is incredibly stupid to semi bluff a draw, you want to see the cards for as cheaply as possible when drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

- Folding ATo on the button after 1 bad playing limper is a pretty bad idea

- You need to read the chapter on semibluffing in TOP. Hero would very much like to win the pot by spiking one of his overcards, in addition to his flush outs. If semibluffing the flop could cause a hand like KT or J9 to fold, hero has made a very profitable play.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to bet the flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because these guys will chase without looking at their cards ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a reason not to bet?

If your opponents are almost certainly not going to fold, one of the advantages of betting has been removed.

/mc

[mikewvp]

For some reason or another, I wasn't even considering the overcards as part of the draw (was only thinking of flush draw). You make a good point to try and fold out J9.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to bet the flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because these guys will chase without looking at their cards ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a reason not to bet?

If your opponents are almost certainly not going to fold, one of the advantages of betting has been removed.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

Some players play so loosely after the flop that value betting A-high hands with position against them should show a profit. Frequently they are chasing with less than six outs, and often with only 3 outs those times they hold an A or a T.

[Trix]

They aren´t folding overcards. It´s pretty much a monster draw for those twos standards.
Maybe I should have bet or check-raised for value though.

[Dylan Wade]

limp (all-in) with ATo utg in a tourney

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise, then I would probably have to bet both flop and turn, but if I limp I´m very unlikely to make any mistakes postflop.

The real question is whether the equity I give up preflop is worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

With only 1 limper to you, a raise isnt going to make the pot big enough so that a flop bet isnt causing your opponents to make mistakes in calling it. What mistake would you make postflop if you raised? The hand plays easier if you raise.

This is an easy raise preflop. You gave up too much on this one by limping, imo.

If there were many more limpers, then i'd probably just limp in here.

ATo plays much better HU than multiway. Get those damn blinds out if you can, or make them pay to see the flop.

b

[bernie]

I slogged through this thread and still haven't seen an answer from you over this, as many have asked about it...

[ QUOTE ]
I also very likely wont make any mistakes postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I posted it to find out if it was worth giving up some preflop equity in order to lower the chance of making mistakes postflop greatly and having your opponents make bigger mistakes postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell mistakes, 'greatly' at that, are you making postflop that are so bad you won't raise this preflop with one limper? You haven't given any reasons at all. I cant think of any. Where is this big gaping ass hole in your postflop game that you're speaking of?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
My personal opinion and I am open to criticism, fold hand 1 preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ATo hand? You've gotta be kidding me. This is a joke response, right?

b

[Michael Davis]

In the first hand, it is a big mistake not to raise PF with AT.

-Michael

[Trix]

If I limp it will very likely be 4way. ATo wins 34.1% against 3 random hands. So I´ll win 34.1% of the 4 bets right? or 1.364 = +.364 SB EV.
If I raise it will be
1) HU for +.201 SB
2) 3way with SB for +1.108 SB
3) 4way for +.728 SB
4) 3way with BB for +.886 SB

So, can I make this up postflop by having them make bigger mistakes than they would if the pot was twice the size and also not having them pretty much check-calling with most their hands ?

[Saborion]

Hmm... tough one, for me at least. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Comparing all those numbers it appears as though if you could make 1 SB more post-flop by not raising, not raising is more EV.

But, add those times you raise and get it 4-way, flop a decent hand that holds up. Then you might've lost EV by not raising pre-flop. You might be bet into post-flop even though you raise pre. You might not raise, flop a decent hand, but only to have the BB flop a better and slowplay it until the turn/river.

As I said, tough one. For some reason I'd prefer raising pre-flop and let the blinds decide whether they want to join or not. If not, fine, dead money. If they do, ok then. At least they didn't get in cheap/for free.

I'll let the pro's of this forum tell me why I should and should not raise though, since I'm still unsure about the best course of action.

[MAxx]

a-10 on the button should be an automatic raise against a bad player limping from ep. not a question here. reason is simple, you probably have the best hand but it is vulnerable enough to prefer the blinds to get out. If the blinds are not getting out, then at least you are increasing the pot for yourself. Inviting the blinds into the hand on the cheap is a bad idea here. I think you may have overthought a basic strategy here and ended up with a weak play.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Why give the random hands the chance to outflop you?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If I limp it will very likely be 4way. ATo wins 34.1% against 3 random hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want as few players as possible with this hand. 34% is quite a stretch. The only real 'random' hand is the BB.

You're playing this as if you think it's a made hand or AKo. ATo is not that strong of a hand. It loses alot of value for each extra player you let in. Let's say you catch a T on the flop. You have 3 overcards out there that could redraw on you. Id much rather get them out as early as possible. This way, should one of those cards hit, primarily the J, or Q, your hands may still be good unimproved.

Id say given the small number of players that could come in preflop at this point, you wont make up the bets postflop by letting them outflop you. You're the one who could be trapped paying them off, giving EV to them.

Lets say the flop is rags and someone bets. You're saying this is easier to play than if you raised it? Let's say an A hits and you get bet into...

Say it's A high flop 2 tone with a mid str8draw. A blind bets out, other blind calls, UTG now raises. That's a fun spot to be in. Where do you stand?

Btw...you still haven't given any of your 'mistakes' you think you'd be making postflop if you raised this preflop.

This should be an auto-raise preflop against this type of EP limper.

If they all call, you also, with your position, can benefit from an early flop bettor if you flop a decent draw. Remember, you also have position the whole way should you need it.

The pot just isnt going to be big enough to worry about 'making up' EV postflop.

b

[arkady]

I like it.

[MarkD]

You're not playing showdown poker against random hands.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say the flop is rags and someone bets. You're saying this is easier to play than if you raised it? Let's say an A hits and you get bet into...


[/ QUOTE ]
If someone bets, then I have a very easy fold in a 4SB pot...

[ QUOTE ]
Say it's A high flop 2 tone with a mid str8draw. A blind bets out, other blind calls, UTG now raises. That's a fun spot to be in. Where do you stand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I fold. He flopped a set... This is very unlikely to happen though as he would check-call almost anything he can flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Btw...you still haven't given any of your 'mistakes' you think you'd be making postflop if you raised this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop comes Jxx, it´s checked to me, I bet and they call. Same on turn, since they would call with anything and I still have a good chance of beeing ahead.

If it´s unraised then I can fold if if I miss and am bet into.

[ QUOTE ]
The pot just isnt going to be big enough to worry about 'making up' EV postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I wanted to hear. I´m not gonna limp with AT after one limper again then..


Btw. I have given up on this hand. It was probably FPS as you said. Thx to all for beeing patient with it.

[sthief09]

I raise ATo almost 100% of the time that I play it. I find it to be an extremely difficult hand to play if you don't raise PF, since it misses the flop so often, yet AT-high will sometimes be the best hand even when you miss. Sometimes I think that it's just a pretty crappy hand.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets say the flop is rags and someone bets. You're saying this is easier to play than if you raised it? Let's say an A hits and you get bet into...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If someone bets, then I have a very easy fold in a 4SB pot...


[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the board, doesn't it? You may easily have the best hand. But with this in mind, what type of flop are you hoping for then if you will easily fold for a single bet on a flop like this? Why even see a flop, in this case?

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Say it's A high flop 2 tone with a mid str8draw. A blind bets out, other blind calls, UTG now raises. That's a fun spot to be in. Where do you stand?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Then I fold. He flopped a set... This is very unlikely to happen though as he would check-call almost anything he can flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt be putting him on a set. UTG is kind of LAG you said. His range is much wider.

[ QUOTE ]
I have given up on this hand. It was probably FPS as you said. Thx to all for beeing patient with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

One good thing about FPS is that at least your 'thinking'. Just not applying it in the right spots. Once you hone in on where/why to use some plays, it will make you that much more dangerous on a table. Remember, sometimes you can outthink yourself out of a few bets.

I hope, with this thread, you understand why you raise in this spot. This can be applied to many 'like' hands of the same nature.

cheers...

b

[BottlesOf]

You're certainly not alone. Many feel it's the worst hand in hold'em for its deceptive playability. I play it only in limited situations and always for a raise. (Unless I'm a blind then my play may be different)

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Many feel it's the worst hand in hold'em for its deceptive playability.

[/ QUOTE ]

My vote goes to KTo. I absolutely hate this friggin hand. It's one hand i really like to see people limp in with in EP/MP or weak postflop players in LP.

A good thing about ATo is that many times you will likely have the best A on the flop as AK/AQ and AJ usually raise preflop. KTo cant even hold ATo's jock strap.

b

[Thomsen]

I think i would limp on the button if everyone else has called already