When you know you have a player on tilt... and hey just lost stack !

[TheNutz]

I have a question regarding NLHE ring games, when you know you have a player tilted because of their loose play before you wipe them out and their immediate reload after you bust them out.

They aren't thinking about anything but getting that money back QUICKLY 90% of the time, especially when you are playing at levels I like (Typicaly $25 max some times $50 max).

This is my question the very next hand after you bust someone they make a huge preflop raise, do you play it like every other hand or do you loosen up a bit figuring they are on tilt. Consider this,

A) Player was fairly wreckless
B) Liked to bluff alot
C) Didn't even have THAT Legitimate of a hand when he went out

I say these three things as they are typically universal. Would love to hear opinions on this?

Also same goes for when you have someone short stacked, and they continously raise prelfop all-in stealing blinds hoping to double back up. How do you play these players? I have been waiting for a hand such as atleast A9s or better.. passing on KQ etc. But I fear this may be a leak in my game not exploiting the 'tilt factor'

Any input would be appreciated.

[Al Schoonmaker]

In a limit game, I would loosen up substantially. In NL I would remember that I can lose my stack in one shot, and that anybody, even people on tilt, can bust me. In fact, someone on tilt has a much better chance of doing so. I can easily overplay my hand, thinking he has trash.
In addition, there is always the danger that someone will sneak in behind me and bust me.
In NL it pays to be cautious.
You might want to read my series on tilt at cardplayer.com
Regards,
Al

[deacsoft]

I agree. In no-limit ring game the tilting player and the small stack should be respected. I would want a pretty good hand or some serious odds to mix it up with them. You're most likely correct to assume the want to "get their money back" or double up in most cases. Wait... stop and think about that... they want to double up so their going to want to play a hand that has a good chance of winning. You will then need a hand that has a great chance of winning to play.

All of this didn't exactly come out the way I wanted it to, but I hope you can see my point.

[TheNutz]

Al & deacsoft, I agree with both of you guys and this is a valid point. This is basically how I am playing at this point of time, and it is paying off. I let them power house me with 9 all-in pushes in a row, then I see A9s and I call them down. They flip over JT, T8, or even seen T5o before..

I guess my question is... Is a hand like A9 calling in this situation playing too loose ? Does it vary depending on the pot size ? Are there are other posts that cover this subject?

The plain and simple truth is you are taking a risk by calling them period but eventually you HAVE to put your foot down and call them, even at NL if they steal your blinds for 10 - 20 hands in a row while you wait for AK (which btw can still be cracked even if you wait for it!) it isn't a substantial amount of money, but you have let them build up their stack and quite possibly tighten their play back up before you hit your easy money hand.

Now this in itself may not be all that bad of a thing as you have them back on their regular playing pattern and can go back to your game as usual, which obviously is a winning game versus that opponent if you have their stack in the first place. It could also hurt you though as they could be off tilt, realize what they just did and straighten up their game playing a better game... Probability, 10% maybe though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Definately a post for the Psychology forumn huh? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[StellarWind]

I'm a little surprised by the answers I am seeing.

If a player will go all-in with many hands that are below normal standards, you do not need as good a hand to call. In ring play you should call whenever you have the best of it considering his range of possible hands.

Al, I agree that this strategy seriously increases the risk of him busting me. But why should that concern me if I have an edge and can afford the variance?

Caveat: of course you have to watch your back. You cannot push things nearly as far when there are players still to act behind you.

Notice that my remarks so far apply to any type of poker where a player has open-raised all-in. The practical NL hold'em player still needs to decide what hands are possible for this opponent and what hand he needs in order to have an edge.

[Al Schoonmaker]

You asked: "Is a hand like A9 calling in this situation playing too loose ?"
Absolutely.
First, you can very easily have the worst of it.
Second, even if you have the best of it, you may not have remotely as big an edge as you think.
Go to cardplayer.com or twodimes.com or any of the other sites that calculate odds. Insert A9 against a variety of hands: 78s, JT, KQ, AJ, etc. You will be shocked at how many hands are only 60/40 dogs or better against you. In fact, you will see that YOU'RE the dog against lots of hands he could have.
You do NOT want to risk a lot of money against someone who is playing badly with a small edge, and you certainly don't want to risk it with a negative one.
WAIT!
You can't be too eager to take on the sucker because you risk becoming the sucker. For example, you can make a big call against the sucker and have someone move in behind you. Now what do you do?
Regards,
Al

[deacsoft]

Again, Dr. Schoonmaker, I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[TheNutz]

Good reading, and ty for the input everyone, especially you Al! Made me think alot, I'll try playing differently tonight...

Typically this is in two - three player ring games, I tend to hop table to table... s/h play only. Once 4 players join I start to think about leaving. If 5 hit I leave.. Start another game, bet Party loves me.

[Al Schoonmaker]

If you are a good short handed player, table hopping is an excellent system. Am I correct in assuming that you are joining tables that will normally have 9-10 players? If so, you're avoiding the other short handed specialists. They join a different set of tables. One of my professional friends has gotten excellent results with this table hopping approach.
Regards,
Al

[TheNutz]

Al,
Exactly what I'm doing... You avoid the 6 max people who are used to agression and playing slightly weaker starting hands properly in h/u or s/h/ play. To be honest my full ring game is not nearly as good. I would say I actually specialize in heads up more then short handed, but am working on gearing more towards s/h. However this does hurt my game when I got back into tournaments..

Regards,
Ryan

[Cpt Spaulding]

The way I look at it is you don't get any bonuses for knocking a player out. You might get a couple extra chips (which is nice). However, changing your play style for the main purpose of sending someone to the showers is risky. When I alter my game once and win I find it easier for me to justify doing it again. Another angle to consider is if he does win the next hand and doubles up off another player, those chips are more accessable than with the better player. Just a thought.....