Controlling Leaks

[GWB]

From this article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=696&e=1&u=/ap/20040618/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes) we discover that John Kerry is obsessed with stopping leaks from his staff, and controlling intelligence. A preview of things to come if he got into the White house?

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Kerry, a four-term senator with a history of publicly chastising his staff.... A day earlier, his meeting with Rep. Dick Gephardt became public despite efforts to keep it under wraps.

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[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
From this article we discover that John Kerry is obsessed with stopping leaks from his staff, and controlling intelligence. A preview of things to come if he got into the White house?


[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, pot, kettle, black.

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From this article we discover that John Kerry is obsessed with stopping leaks from his staff, and controlling intelligence. A preview of things to come if he got into the White house?


[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, pot, kettle, black.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that a lot of posters act as if Kerry would be different, but he won't. So pick your guy based on policies, not Iraqi/911 conspiracy theories.

My administration is honestly trying to fight terrorism and make the world and the USA a better place, we need four more years. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
My administration is honestly trying to fight terrorism and make the world and the USA a better place, we need four more years

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For some reason, this reminded me of The Simpsons episode with George HW Bush. He was writing his memoirs, which concluded "having accomplished all that I wanted to in the first four years..." Funny stuff.

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So pick your guy based on policies, not Iraqi/911 conspiracy theories.

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What if the policies of my candidate are something along the lines of "I won't make up connections between Iraq and 9/11 in order to go to war." Now I'm in a quandry. I certainly wouldn't want to vote based on conspiracy theories, but I do want to vote on policy. This voting stuff is tough.

Just out of curiosity, what does the 911/Iraq connection have to do with Kerry not wanting his staff to leak private information? How does this lead you to the conclusion that Kerry won't be different from Bush? Maybe in the one limited way (he will want to stop leaks from his staff, but will be consistently disappointed in number of leaks) --- still has nothing to do the Iraq/911.

[andyfox]

Your administation may be trying to fight terrorism, but it is not doing it honestly and it is not doing it wisely.

Terror is a strategy, a tactic, not an enemy. Unless the causes of terrorism are addressed, rather than just the symptoms, the war will be lost.

Your administration is dishonest and secretive. Kerry is far from the ideal candidate, but it's time for a change.

[Non_Comformist]

I don't support Kerry but this has nothing to do with the individual politician and everything to do with politics. I support Bush but I have no doubts that he is as bad if not worse. An unfortunate but necessary evil perhaps.

[cardcounter0]

Would this policy extend to your staff not "outing" CIA agents in the field?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the causes of terrorism are addressed, rather than just the symptoms, the war will be lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do tell please. There are over 3000 innocent people murdered on 9/11 and most recently these two brutal murders where the graphic details are distributed on the internet and you're going to sell us that this is somehow the fault the U.S. for not addressing the root causes of these acts whatever they may be. Or what are you saying?

[Cyrus]

Nothing like a "third-rate burglary" to get to the bottom of what that bastard John Kerry is scheming against America!


How Republicans take care of leaks (http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwashingtonpost.com%2 Fwp-srv%2Flocal%2Flongterm%2Ftours%2Fscandal%2Fwaterga t.htm)

[MMMMMM]

"Terror is a strategy, a tactic, not an enemy. Unless the causes of terrorism are addressed, rather than just the symptoms, the war will be lost."

An interesting theory.

England had a huge problem with piracy on the high seas some centuries ago. I believe they commenced a lengthy "war on piracy", so to speak, and did manage to conquer it through rather draconian means. Their successful "war on piracy" was a war on a tactic, not a war on an enemy.

IMO the root causes of Islamic terrorism are primarily religious fanaticism, and secondarily things like: the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, jealousy of the West, and dissatisfaction with their own lot (the root cause of which they refuse to address, preferring instead to blame outsiders).

[jokerswild]

The British sponsored piracy in their war with Spain.The primary British strategy in the war between Phillip II and Elizabeth I for 25 years was none other than piracy. I don't know where you studied history.

It must have been at Heidelberg around 1938.

[paland]

Why do you ruin a story with the facts?

[MMMMMM]

What you are describing would be considered offensive piracy, something quite different than renegade piracy. The English hanged pirates, didn't they? Haven't you ever watched any old pirate movies?

[andyfox]

Event don't occur in a vaccuum. To just say, as the administration does, that the evildoers are barbaric, is to assume nothing we do, or don't do, matters. After World War II, the United States attempted to deal with Communism in two basic ways: by making ourselves strong militarily, and by fighting the economic conditions that could lead to Communism through the Marshall Plan.

Al-Qaeda should, as the President said, be brought to justice. And we should be thinking about why Al-Qaeda exists and what can be done to diminish the reasons people have for becoming Al-Qaedans. To just say they're evil and barbaric and that's that is to throw in half the towel.

[MMMMMM]

"To just say they're evil and barbaric and that's that is to throw in half the towel."

And conversely, to not acknowledge that they're barbaric would be to throw in the other half of the towel;-)

Of course, there's more to it than mere barbarism, as you correctly point out.

al-Qaeda sprang from one of two Wahhabist sects, if I recall. Wahhabism in large part reflects a very fundamental interpretation of Islam, and al-Qaeda in large part reflects a very fundamental interpretation of Wahhabism.
al-Qaedans may properly be classified as barbaric fundamentalists.

[Cyrus]

"What you are describing would be considered offensive piracy, something quite different than renegade piracy."

You must be thinking this is some NFL play.

Quit the frantic hand waving and read again Jokerswild post. It's got all you need to know about the piracy thing. What you are saying, above, on the other hand, is inventive obfuscation - admirable but eventually pointless.

"The English hanged pirates, didn't they?"

So? The English also shot deserters - but encouraged the other side's soldiers to defect. You are confused.

"Haven't you ever watched any old pirate movies?"

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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Truly, you are outdoing yourself, M!

[jokerswild]

Let's see. When MMMMMMMM's troops commit torture and murder, it isn't torture and murder. It is liberation. When MMMMMMMMM's country invades another without provocation, it isn't imperialism. When MMMMMMM's country rapes and pillages, it isn't offensive.

Renegade actions take place only when MMMMMMMMMM's puppets (Saddam, Somoza, Pincohe, the Shah, Noriega, Osama) disregard MMMMMMM's orders.
Only then do they no longer practice "social control" or "offensive piracy." They are "renegade" terrorists. and must be removed or killed. The true fascist believes in compliant puppets.

MMMMMMMMM is a true fascist.

[MMMMMM]

jokerswild is referring to only one era of piracy and he is actually referring to privateering, that is, piracy under government auspices.

(excerpt)Privateers were "licensed" to confiscate the cargo of the enemy vessel and divide the profits among the crew. There has always been a fine line between a privateer and a pirate. Pirates commit robbery on the high seas. A pirate ship is not commissioned by any government, and pirates capture other ships in times of peace or war. Piracy constitutes a breach of the law. Privateers are privately owned and armed vessels commissioned by a government to attack enemy vessels in time of war. Because a state of war exists, privateering is not considered breaking the law.(end excerpt)

(excerpt)Piracy in the Americas flourished in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and many of those pirates were New Englanders. Most New England pirates started out as privateers, hired by local merchants and commissioned by one of the colonies to attack the shipping of England's enemies. Since England was periodically at war with a variety of European countries, the shipping of these countries became fair game for the New England privateers. However, when the War of Spanish Succession ended in 1713 with a general European peace, many newly unemployed privateers turned to piracy. This produced the greatest age of piracy with the pirate republic of New Providence at Nassau, Bahamas serving as the center of pirate activity.

Although piracy was punishable by hanging, many seamen were willing to take the risk. Some, who might have been outlaws in any event, took to piracy for the easy profits - it was easy to "get rich quick". Others were attracted by the freer existence and boisterous lifestyle which piracy seemed to offer. With few good paying jobs available during economic downturns, many seamen found piracy a better option than the harsh existence of the common worker ashore. Other factors which encouraged piracy can be found in the trade laws which forbade the colonies from trading with foreigners. This encouraged smuggling which further blurred the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" activities on the high seas. Finally, with an entire hemisphere newly discovered and an absence of international law, there could be few effective controls against piracy.

(end excerpt)

Also of interest:

(excerpt)The Muslim pirates operated from bases in North Africa. During the Crusades (1095 -1295), Muslim pirates plundered the ships carrying the Crusaders and pilgrims and sold many Christians into slavery. For hundreds of years, the Muslim pirates collected "tribute" as protection against attack from the European powers. Usually, Christian Europe found it easiest just to pay the tribute, but in the early 1800's the newly independent United States fought an undeclared naval war against the "Barbary Pirates" under the slogan of "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!" and the phrase "to the shores of Tripoli" was added to the Marine's battle hymn.(end excerpt)

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/manet/394/page24.htm

If you do a search, you will find large numbers of pirates were hanged at England's "Execution Dock". Perhaps that doesn't quite qualify as a "war on piracy", but after the era of English-licensed privateering, the English were left with a piracy problem. The large numbers of pirates hanged dockside attest to English efforts to stamp out this problem--which efforts apparently had the intended effect, over time.

Cyrus, I think perhaps you and jokerswild ought to watch a few more old pirate movies.

[MMMMMM]

^

[paland]

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Haven't you ever watched any old pirate movies?

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I watch Star Trek too. Does that mean we use phasers to kill our enemies?

[jokerswild]

yes your revisionist dogma is nonsense, we agree!

[jokerswild]

Actually, he didn't even know about Elizabeth I's policy. He probably doesn't know of Drake. He made up his position based on his fascist views, and now makes feeble attempts to justify it.

He is an uneducated dogmatist that attempts to rewrite history to fit his fascist view. I suggest that he read Ferguson's EMPIRE. He won't. Fascists burn books. They don't read them.

[MMMMMM]

No, I don't think British State Sponsored Terrorism was wonderful.

Where the hell did you get that idea? Answer: you IMAGINED it.

[MMMMMM]

"I watch Star Trek too. Does that mean we use phasers to kill our enemies?"

No, but hopefully we will soon: it would mean a lot less collateral damage.

[jokerswild]

Your feeble and ridiculous attempt to avoid admitting that you are ignorant of British history just gets worse and worse. You are on tilt again.

I bet that you lose thousands tilting and refusing to admit it at the the poker table.

[cardcounter0]

No, Clinton stopped all the billions being poured into Reagan's Star War Defense programs, so no phasers.

Funny, maybe not dumping all that money into unproductive military programs had something to do with the economy during Clinton's term???

[MMMMMM]

You would make a very poor handicapper.

[ACPlayer]

.

[MMMMMM]

^

[Cyrus]

Suffice to say that you have simply no idea what you are talking about, when you are talking about piracy circa the Elizabethean era. A quick google may provide you with "retort" but is no substitute for true knowledge.

I would suggest Hobsbawm's primer on "Bandits", for you to start getting a grip, sociologically speaking, but would it be of any use? Guess not.

"I think perhaps you and Jokerswild ought to watch a few more old pirate movies."

I can see why Reagan was such a favorite with you.

[MMMMMM]

"Suffice to say that you have simply no idea what you are talking about, when you are talking about piracy circa the Elizabethean era."

Cyrus, did a post-Elizabethan era of piracy exist??

"A quick google may provide you with "retort" but is no substitute for true knowledge."

A quick search on Google actually provided a fine list of old pirate movies to recommend for your viewing pleasure:


(excerpt)
AGAINST ALL FLAGS
1952 ~ Errol Flynn, Maureen O'Hara, Anthony Quinn - A spy for the English (Flynn) infiltrates a major pirate haven.

THE BLACK PIRATE
1926 (silent) ~ Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. - A nobleman pushed too far by a mob of cuthroats. Features one of the most famous swordfight scenes ever filmed. Silent with original music score

THE BLACK SWAN
1942 ~ Tyrone Power, Maureen O'Hare, Anthony Quinn - A high-seas adventure about a dashing pirate intent on rescuing a beautiful woman. Based on the Sabatini book of the same title.

BLACKBEARD'S GHOST
1968 ~ Peter Ustinov, Dean Jones, Elsa Lancaster - Fun Disney film with Peter Ustinov as the infamous Blackbeard.

BLACKBEARD THE PIRATE
1952 ~ Robert Newton, Linda Darnell, Irene Ryan - Newton is rambunctious as a 17th century buccaneer, with lovely Darnell his captive.

THE BOY AND THE PIRATES
1960 ~ Charles Herbert, Susan Gordon, Murvyn Vye - A young boy is magically transported back in time to an 18th century pirate ship on the high seas.

THE BUCCANEER
1938 ~ Frederic March - About Jean Lafitte and the Battle of New Orleans.

THE BUCCANEER
1958 ~ Yul Brynner - a good remake of the 1938 film.

CAPTAIN BLOOD
1935 ~ Errol Flynn - A must see classic pirate epic with Flynn starring in his first swashbuckler. Based on Sabatini's novel of the same name. Dr. Peter Blood is a british physician unjustly sentenced to slavery for aiding a wounded rebel. Bought by the niece of a brutal plantation owner, Blood eventually escapes by overtaking a ship. Once on board, Captain Blood embarks on a series of swashbuckling adventures.

CAPTAIN HORATIO HORNBLOWER
1951 ~ Gregory Peck, Virginia Mayo - Exciting, well-produced sea epic based on C.S. Forester'S british naval hero of the napoleonic wars.

CAPTAIN KIDD
1945 ~ Charles Laughton, Randolph Scott - A pirate double crosses the King of England after making a deal to safeguard a fleet of treasury ships from india.

CAPTAIN KIDD AND THE SLAVE GIRL
1954 ~ Anthony Dexter, Eva Gabor, Alan Hale Jr. - Entertaining cast.

CAPTAIN PIRATE
1952 ~ Louis Hayward - Sequel to "Captain Blood", based on Sabatini's novel "Capt. Blood Returns".

CARRIBEAN
1952 ~ John Payne, Arlene Dahl, Sir Cedric Hardwicke - A revenge minded pirate fights a greedy plantation owner.

THE CRIMSON PIRATE
1952 ~ Burt Lancaster, Nick Cravat - A well done funny spoof of pirate movies.

CUTTHROAT ISLAND
1995 ~ Gena Davis, Matthew Modine, Frank Langella - This adventure pits a tough man and an unconventional woman against greedy thieves and pirates. Good action scenes, great locations and costumes.

THE DEVIL-SHIP PIRATES
1964 ~ Christopher Lee, Barry Warren, Suzan Farmer - The plot is fairly typical but very well told. It has a bit more depth than your standard swashbucklers. Also Christopher Lee excels in the role of the nasty Captain Robeles.

DOUBLE CROSSBONES
1950 ~ Donald O' Connor, Helena Carter, Will Geer - A light comedy about a young man who after being falsely accused of dishonesty decides to become a pirate.

FIRE OVER ENGLAND
1937 ~ Laurence Olivier, Flora Robson - Spain and England fight it out on the high seas.

FORTUNES OF CAPTAIN BLOOD
1950 ~ Louis Hayward, Patricia Medina - A meager remake of "Captain Blood".

FRENCHMAN'S CREEK
1944 ~ Joan Fontaine, Arturo de Cordova, Basil Rathbone, Nigel Bruce - Based on the novel by Daphne du Maurier about a French pirate.

THE GOLDEN HAWK
1952 ~ Rhonda Fleming, Sterling Hayden - Based on the book by Frank Yerby.

HOOK
1991 ~ Dustin Hoffman, Robin Willimas, Bob Hoskins, David Crosby - An entertaining adventure which has an adult Peter Pan fighting the evil Hook.

THE ICE PIRATES
1984 ~ Robert Urich, Mary Crosby, Anjelica Huston - A light hearted comedy about space pirates.

ISLAND
1980 ~ Michael Caine - A modern day pirate tale based on the novel by Peter Benchley.

THE KING'S PIRATE
1967 ~ Doug McClure, Guy Stockwell - A well done remake of "Against All Flags".

LAST OF THE BUCCANEERS
1951 ~ Paul Henreid, Jack Oakie, Karin Booth - This very good swashbuckler is about the adventures of Jean Lafitte. Set after he helped to save New Orleans from British invasion during the war of 1812.

LONG JOHN SILVER
1954 ~ Robert Newton, Kit Taylor, Connie Gilchrist - Newton does an outstanding job in his role of the fictional pirate Long John Silver.

MAGIC ISLAND
1995 ~ Andrew Divoff, Zachery Ty Bryan - A 13-year old discovers a fantastic new world that lies beyond the pages of a magical book about pirates. Jack gets whisked into the book itself, and encounters land sharks, beautiful mermaids, duels & danger during his breathtaking adventure on Magic Island.

THE MASTER OF BALLANTRAE
1953 ~ Errol Flynn - A classic starring Flynn as a Scottish Lord driven from his family and homeland then forced to join in with pirates.

THE MASTER OF BALLANTRAE
1984 ~ Richard Thomas, Michael York, Timothy Dalton - A dismal remake of the 1953 classic.

MORGAN THE PIRATE
1961 ~ Steve Reeves, Valarie Lagrange, Chelo Alonso - A well-rounded pirate adventure. This was truly one of Reeves best movies.

MUPPET TREASURE ISLAND
1996 ~ Tim Curry, Kevin Bishop, Jennifer Saunders - A muppet twist on the classic tale.

NATE AND HAYES
1983 ~ Tommy Lee Jones, Michael O'Keefe - Jones plays the part of Captain Hayes who is transporting a couple to an island to be married. The evil captain of another ship raids the island and takes it's inhabitants as slaves to sell. Hayes gets blamed and has to fight to get the couple back. The chemistry between Tommy Lee Jones and Michael O'Keefe is perfect and the score to the film is sweeping and epic. Good pirate adventure, highly recommended.

PIRATES
1986 ~ Walter Matthau, Cris Campion, Damien Thomas - A well meaning film which looks good but falls short in the story line.

PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN: The Curse of the Black Pearl
2003 ~ Johnny Depp, Geoffrey Rush, Orlando Bloom - An entertaining disney adventure with plenty of action, humor and thrills.

THE PIRATES OF PENZANCE
1983 ~ Kevin Kline, Angela Lansbury, Linda Ronstadt, Rex Smith - This movie is an fair adaptation of Gilbert and Sullivan's comic operetta of the same name.

PIRATES OF THE PLAIN
1999 ~ Tim Curry, Seth Adkins - A pirate and his ship is transported through a time warp to Nebraska. A farm boy and the Pirate captain fight the crew for a buried treasure. Shot on location in South Africa.

THE PIRATE MOVIE
1982 ~ Christopher Atkins, Kristy McNichol - A light-hearted musical comedy. If you are a fan of true Gilbert and Sullivan, then this movie is NOT for you.

PIRATES OF THE SEVEN SEAS
1965 ~ Steve Reeves - Based on the novel "The Pirates of Malaya".

PIRATES OF TORTUGA
1961 ~ Ken Scott, John Richardson - This one is about Sir Henry Morgan's adventures.

THE PIRATES OF TRIPOLI
1955 ~ Paul Henreid, Patricia Medina.

PORT SINISTER
1953 ~ James Warren, Lynne Roberts, Paul Cavanagh - More of a 50's low budget sci-fi than a pirate adventure. About the legendary pirate town of Port Royal rising from the sea.

PRINCE OF PIRATES
1953 ~ John Derek, Barbara Rush, Carla Balenda - A very entertaining pirate film, with an excellent cast.

THE PRINCESS BRIDE
1987 ~ Peter Falk, Billy Crystal - A story of how Wesley leaves his love 'Buttercup' promising his return, to make his fortune and meets "his end" with the Dread Pirate Roberts.

QUEEN OF THE PIRATES
1960 ~ Gianna Maria Canale, Massimo Serato, Scilla Gabel - A 16th century sea captain and his daughter escape false charges by running away to become pirates.

RAGE OF THE BUCCANEERS
1962 ~ Ricardo Montalban, Vincent Price - Standard low budget pirate flick.

RAIDERS OF THE SEVEN SEAS
1953 ~ John Payne, Donna Reed, Lon Chaney Jr. - A hollywood tale about a pirate named Barbarossa.

RETURN TO TREASURE ISLAND
1954 ~ Tab Hunter, Dawn Adams - Standard tale.

RETURN TO TREASURE ISLAND
1985 (6-part mini-series) ~ Brian Blessed, Christopher Guard - Well made Disney pirate adventure which teams Long John Silver with an adult Jim Hawkins.

SEA DEVILS
1953 ~ Yvonne de Carlo, Rock Hudson - Another standard pirate film.

THE SEA HAWK
1940 ~ Errol Flynn - An exciting adventure drama about an english pirate, who upon learning that the Spanish plan to invade his native England with their armada, rushes back to save Queen and country. Great ship scenes.

THE SON OF CAPTAIN BLOOD
1962 ~ Sean Flynn - Errol's son Sean trys his hand in films as a swashbuckler.

THE SPANISH MAIN
1945 ~ Paul Henreid, Maureen O'Hara - A pirate captain takes on a greedy Spanish governor.

SWASHBUCKLER
1976 ~ Robert Shaw, James Earl Jones, Peter Boyle - An excellant pirate movie with all the classic thrills.

TREASURE ISLAND
1934 ~ Wallace Beery, Jackie Cooper - First Film Adaptation Of Robert Lewis Stevenson'S Classic 1883 Novel.

TREASURE ISLAND
1950 ~ Robert Newton - This exciting live action production of the classic Robert Louis Stevenson pirate tale was the best of them all, With Newton magnificent as the infamous treasure seeker Long John Silver. After this movie, Newton continued his role in the Disney TV series.

TREASURE ISLAND
1972 ~ Orson Welles, Kevin Burfield - Welles portrays Long John Silver in this version of Robert Louis Stevenson's pirate tale.

TREASURE ISLAND
1990 ~ Charlton Heston, Christian Bale, Oliver Reed, Christopher Lee - This made for TV version is one of the best adaptions of the classic novel.

YANKEE BUCCANEER
1952 ~ Jeff Chandler, Scott Brady - Standard pirate tale with a good cast.

YELLOWBEARD
1983 ~ Peter Cook, Graham Chapman, Peter Boyle - Classic satire with an all star cast. Yellowbeard, a pirate's pirate, is allowed to escape from prison to lead the authorities to his treasure. (end excerpt)

http://www.geocities.com/captcutlass/Film.html

[adios]

And the guilty should be punished. Of the various terrorist organizations around the world in the recent past and currently, I have the hardest time in seeing a scintilla of legitimacy to al Qaeda's agenda.

[andyfox]

Agreed.

[Zeno]

Great list. Pirates have been around since people started bobbing around in boats on the open water.

As an aside, pirates captured Caesar when he was younger but he saved his skin with promises of money and a payoff, which (I think) was delivered. When he was released he raised a band of his own thugs, went after the pirates, and killed them all. Too bad Caesar isn’t still around - A thoroughly likeable man that got things done. Too bad he was assassinated and just before his planned expedition to conquer the Parthian Empire (which then encompassed much of what is now Syria, Iraq, and Iran [part of this was to avenge the defeat and death of Crassus that occurred in 53). He would have been successful and history would be much different than today. He was going to be away for three years – hell, he might have made it all the way to India, like Alexander.

If Julius Caesar ran for president today he would certainly get my vote. He was always ‘the peoples’ candidate.

-Zeno

[Cyrus]

You only had to name-drop the old devil to impress me. But no, not even some Robert Williams. All you did was, well, google yer eyes...

(It appears that the piracy thing is well out of your league. Maybe pirate movies won't be. May I suggest starting a thread about pirate movies? A merry thread 't'll be.)

[Chris Alger]

Then it would be "war" and "collateral damage." In which case we'll just have to "wait and see" about the agenda, as M describes the proper course of action concerning our occupation of "free" Iraq.

And what if the enterprise is later judged a reckless grab for territory and power procurred by implanting mass unjustified fear, something with no more bearing on self-defense than the survival of anticommunist strongmen in "South Vietnam?" By then it will be, as you've said, "in the past," a regretable history best forgotten, hardly a warrant to haul those responsible before a tribunal.

Punishment is for retail terrorists. Wholesale collateral killers are heros.