All night long, check, check, check...

A loose-passive 10-20 game. Middle position player open limps, all fold to me on the button with Ac 5c and I call. Both blinds call.


Flop Qh 8d 6d. We all check.


Turn Qd. Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB and MP call.


River 6s. Checked to me, I bet, MP calls.


I didn't raise preflop because I knew both blinds would call and I wasn't sure where I stood with the MP. (He open-limped from 3 off the button the previous lap with pocket tens). Would you fold here in a game with calling stations?


I feel that it's my duty to bet the turn when they check it to me. However, it's obvious that I don't have a Queen and will be called by any pair and/or flush draws. The best case scenario for my turn bet is that they all fold, but that's highly unlikely. The worst case is that I get checkraised which is very likely. So was my bet correct?


On the river I'm stuck again. Did they check to me because they missed their draws? Or did they check because they had a pair and planned on calling? Stupid to try to bluff two players, huh?


By making a marginal call preflop I was forced to make marginal plays the rest of the hand. Not a good situation. What are your thoughts?

Pre-flop I lean toward folding AXs after only 1 limper, especially if he's the type of player who I know to limp with a dangerous hand.


I disagree that you're obligated to bet into 3 players after having missed both the flop and turn. A bet would make more sense had you picked up some kind of draw, but you don't even know if you have any outs. IMO-

I probably would have called preflop, but it is marginal.


On the turn, I would have checked. You won't lose a diamond, or any pair, and you probably beat everything else.


I think you threw money away on the river. A worse hand will not call, a better hand will call, and you have a hand that can win a showdown.

Preflop either raise or fold. Take the initiative and play accordingly from the flop on having raised. Had you raised BTF and bet the flop your play would have been much more straight forward and you would not have been throwing darts at the wall with your eyes covered. As far as your play I would not bet on the turn. You have absolutely nothing and you have too

many opponents. You have invested one small bet and the next hand will hopefully be more profitable.


Bruce

Why bet the river ? You have two pair (on board) ace kicker in hand . Only a better hand or Ace will call .

"Middle position player open limps, all fold to me on the button with Ac 5c and I call."


Yuck. Double yuck. Am I really the only guy who would raise every time and feel good about it? The thought of folding knots my gut. Reading "I call" made me lurch. My heck, I show up for situations like this. Can we really think so differently about such a common occurance?


"I feel that it's my duty to bet the turn when they check it to me."


Agreed. And this is a fine time to be done with putting money in the pot. On the river, I'd be thrilled by the free showdown. The only way a bet makes money (half the pot) is if it gets ace high to fold. That already slim likelihood is cut in half because the first guy might conceivably fold an ace with a player behind him, but the second will then call if he has an ace.


Further damage to the river bet comes from their calls of your turn bet, and that the limper limped. Doubtful an ace is out at all.


Tommy

So you think I'm missing out on $$ by folding AXs here? Of course I'll raise, but only when I feel I have decent control over my opponent. I wouldn't always play AXo here, would you? I think the fact that there are still two players (in the blinds), yet to be heard from should not be too readily dismissed. Add to this the fact that this player was described as someone who could limp with a dangerous holding, and I don't see the big loss in folding.

I don't think that it's an automatic raise preflop. What's the point if the blinds will surely not fold and are loose enough to more than likely take one off? In THIS loose-passive game I think calling was better than raising, and folding perhaps even more appropriate (try not to put your foot through your monitor when reading that, Tommy).


The bet on the turn was marginal but not too far out of line. I made the river bet because I was up over a rack in about two hours and had been very aggressive up to this point with control over the table, hence I thought this was an opprotunity to get them both to lay down their hands.


As it turns out, the MP called the river with the diamond King and the BB said he folded red pocket fives. I said it was loose-passive!


I wasn't confident about any decision I made throughout the hand then or now. That's why I posted it.


-Thanks

Well you certainly won the maximum. If there was a showdown you

still would have won the hand. I think you may be a little

results oriented. I think if you were to play this type hand routinely in this manner you would certainly not show a profit long term.


I still think if you play this hand on the button you have to

raise. You have the best possible position, you probably have

the best hand, and you will have momentum by raising. If John

Feeney is out there listening might this be a corollary to limping from the button first one in, except you have a limper already in. John has a section in his excellent book about

limping on the button as the first player in with hands like

T7s, Q5s against live ones in the blind who will not fold to

a raise. On second thought maybe limping isn't such a bad play

although I personally find it impossible to do.


Bruce

"So you think I'm missing out on $$ by folding AXs here?"


Only if you think it's wrong to fold. Let's say the situation came up again and because of some posts you read on 2+2, you decided to raise. But in the back of your mind, you're thinking, this isn't me, this isn't my game. I'm in unfamiliar territory because of words on a computer screen.


That's what happens to me when I occasionally call a raise from the BB with a hand that I would normally fold, but I call anyway because almost everyone here would. I rationalize my call, using 2+2, thinking, hey, it can't be that bad, lots of sharp guys do it.


But it isn't my game to play those hands. Folding the blinds is a cornerstone of my whole approach. So it's a bad call, even when it's a good call.


"I wouldn't always play AXo here, would you?"


Yes. (With the usual disclaimer about the word "always.")


"I think the fact that there are still two players (in the blinds), yet to be heard from should not be too readily dismissed."


Agreed. Not readily dismissed. But still, in practice, dismissed. I don't raise "to get them to fold" or "because I might have the best hand" or "to see where they are at." I just raise, for the same reason that I muck the blinds. The cornerstone thing.


"Add to this the fact that this player was described as someone who could limp with a dangerous holding,..."


You mean like AA or KK? That's a lot of fear to take into a flop. Or were you thinking he'd limp with a better ace-x? I don't see what's to fear there either. Then it's even more likely that he'll miss.


Tommy