Playing QQ-JJ from the blinds

This is in regards to a point Mason made in a previous thread ("JJ in the small blind"), where he states that raising with 99 or AA from the blinds against 8 limpers is correct (obviously worthwhile simply for the straight up odds of flopping a set), but you should prefer to just call with QQ-JJ in order to keep the pot small so that you can win more often when you flop an overpair. I had a question regarding how he would play the hand postflop after just calling, but the thread kind of got buried, so I'm going to repost my question here and see what you all think.


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So you have QQ-JJ in the blinds with 8 opponents before the flop. You don't raise to try and maximize your chances of winning when you flop an overpair. If no overcards flop, how would you proceed with the hand? Lead/3-bet, check raise, check to see where a bet comes from and take appropriate actions to narrow the field, or something else? What if it doesn't look like you can knock anyone out (maybe you checked and the player to your left bet and was called in many places)? The reason I ask is that if you have flopped an overpair with QQ-JJ, the board is probably favorable for several of the 8 limping hands, which makes it difficult to know where a bet will come from, as well as oftentimes hard to knock out enough players with a raise to get your hand to hold up a reasonable percentage of the time. Not having any real information to go on before the flop, how do you handle the situation?


Just for the record, I would probably check the flop and hope for a situation where I get to knock some players out, either with a raise on the flop (late position bettor and 0-2 callers), or a check raise on the turn (middle position bettor and 2-3 callers). But I really feel kind of lost here if I check and there are more than 3 callers between me and the player who bets, or if I bet and just get called by many players.

I tend to rely on my sixth sense to tell me where the strength lies on the flop. For example, if the flop cards are all fairly small, say, 872 and I have a couple of tight players to my immediate left, well then I know that the bet on the flop is not likely to come from these chaps. I'll try for the checkraise of a late position dude. Simialrly, if I spot aggressive players in late position who tend to capitalize on their position by betting when everyone checks, I'll go for the checkraise.


On the other hand, if I have QQ and the flop comes Jack high, I might bet out particularly if I think that the players to my immediate left are aggressive enough that they will raise with a pair of Jacks etc. etc.


In other words, it is a function of feel which of course can sometimes be misguided.


BTW, if I checked and the player to my left bet and got 3 or 4 callers, I may checkraise right on the flop if I think that this guy is capable of 3 betting in an effort to increase his chances of winning the pot. I may also judge that calling may be best followed with a bet on the turn in order to induce a raise from him on the turn. Or, I may just check agian on the turn, let him bet and checkraise the field for value.


Bottom Line: Too tough to draw any real guidelines or rules as to how to play JJ/QQ on the flop when you have flopped an overpair but in general, the checkarsie of a late position player works best. This is because in a multiway field, the early position players usually only bet if they have a good hand whereas the late position players can bet good, middling and down right lousy hands. As we all know, many flops miss everybody. When that happens, the bet (if any) usually comes from a late position player.

I don't know if there is a cut and dried answer to this problem. If the game is loose pre-flop and tight post-flop I would be more inclined to check-raise on the flop. If there are many loose post flop players I'm more inclined to pray and then try and get a check raise in on the turn if there is a bet from late position.


Another option is to bet the flop and then check-raise on the turn if you still like your hand. This play is advocated by S&M if you have stronger hand. With 7+ players I think it might be worth the risk.


The bottom line is I always feel lucky when I win with an overpair in this type situation.

I don't see many 8 way pots, so I would be lost here as well. I would check raise the flop. If it gets checked around, I can make a big bet on the turn. If an overcard hits, I can check and see the action and probably fold, costing me one small bet on the hand.


If the flop is bet by someone and raised, I would reraise and lead out on the turn if that was the end of the action. If raised on the turn without a set or an open-ender, I would have to fold as my pair is most likely beat. Tough to raise the man who three-bet the flop.

I believe that many of the better thinkers here are of the view that you should raise with QQ/JJ preflop even when in the bb in a multiway pot. Some names that come to mind are Abdul, Izmet, Sean Duffy, Andrew Prock, Backdoor, Terrence Chan etc (BTW, if I have wrongly included anybody in this camp...my apologies).


It's an interesting debate with both camps making persuasive arguments.

"It's an interesting debate with both camps making persuasive arguments."


And that's what makes me think it doesn't much matter and let mood and mode dictate the course.


Tommy

My thoughts exactly.


A couple of years ago there was a thread about the thrid level of thinking on a hand where John Feeney was on the river heads up with a guy. He and Jim Brier were arguing back and forth over the correct play and I chimed in with "well, if they can't agree then it doesn't matter." Sklansky agreed with me. My shining moment on 2=2.

"It's an interesting debate with both camps making persuasive arguments."


And that's what makes me think it doesn't much matter and let mood and mode dictate the course


This is often the case.


Every once in a while it may indicate a paradigm shift is at hand, however.


Regards.