Two for review, pls. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Sam T.

06-17-2004, 09:31 AM

Hi all,

After a few months playing limit, I'm trying to get serious about tournament play, and wonder weather/how these hands from last night might have been played better.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t780)
Button (t485)
Hero (t720)
BB (t1580)
UTG (t685)
UTG+1 (t725)
MP1 (t2585)
MP2 (t440)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
5 folds, Button raises to t60, Hero raises to t90, 1 fold, Button calls t30.

Flop: (t210) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t30, Hero raises to t80, Button raises to t130, Hero raises to t630 (All-In), Button calls t265 (All-In).

Turn: (t1235) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1235) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1235
Main Pot: t1000 (t1000), between Button and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (t1000).
Pot 2: t235 (t235), returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qs Ad (two pair, queens and fours).
Button shows 7c Qc (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins t1235. 

------------------------

Note: I probably shouldn't have been in this hand to begin with.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t205)
Hero (t1300)
CO (t1860)
Button (t880)
SB (t2460)
BB (t1295)

Preflop: Hero 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t50, Hero raises to t100, CO calls t100, 3 folds, UTG raises to t205 (All-In), Hero calls t105, CO calls t105.

Flop: (t690) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets t600, CO folds.

Turn: (t1290) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1290) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1290
Main Pot: t690 (t690), between UTG and Hero. > Pot won by UTG (t690).
Pot 2: t600 (t600), returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Ts Qd (one pair, queens).
Hero shows 9s 8s (one pair, eights).
Outcome: UTG wins t690. Hero wins t600.

La Brujita

06-17-2004, 10:07 AM

Hand 1:

A raise is fine preflop and a flat call probably isn't terrible either given the blind size. I assume you are raising because you think your hand is good and the button is/may be on a steal. Unlike limit, when you make any raises in nl you think about making pot sized raises. Incidentally are you even able to raise from 60 to 90 in nl? A pot sized raise would have been to 180 or so.

That is 25% of your stack so frankly I think you are better off flat calling and seeing the flop.

After the button bet on the flop you need to push all in. The correct raise size would have been a potter, but that commits too much of your stack.

Hand 2:

A pretty questionable hand to get involved with, drawing hands out of position are tougher to play in nl than limit. But if you are going to play you need to be pretty sure the game is very loose and passive. If I were playing a game where everyone always limps and raises are rare I might limp here since you are risking less than 5% of your stack with a limp. Problem is such games are rare, partly because too early limps shows weakness and a big bet (a show of strength) can usually take it down uncontested.

The raise here preflop is not good at all. It is not good at all in a limit tourney either. All you are doing is cutting into your implied odds, the ep limper will call the minimum raise. UTG makes an unspeakably bad play with the limp all in when he should have just pushed and gotten you out in the first place if he thought this was the hand to do it. Basically you raise made it four times as expensive for you to see a flop in a hand you want to see the flop as cheaply as possible.

On the flop as a general rule if you are betting more than about 35-40% of your stack or so you should just push in. When your chips get all in on a draw you lose any implied odds connected to making the hand. Flop decision is very very tough here, tough to play these drawing hands out of position with shallow money. I would have either checked or bet half the pot.

Regards

mikey checks

06-17-2004, 10:22 AM

first one seems played correctly, second a little overzealous (even though you had the pot till the river)

Sam T.

06-17-2004, 10:36 AM

Brujita,

Many thanks for the extended comments. After reviewing Hand Two I was so embarassed I almost didn't post it. (My only explanation for my play is that my wife and I had just had a fight [in laws coming to visit /images/graemlins/frown.gif], and I was still steaming.) In light of your comments, I'm glad I did.

Hand One: I raised pre-flop in part because I thought his bet was probably a steal, and also to get a better idea of his strength. When he called and then min bet the flop, I went from "I want to win the pot now" to "I'm KNOW going to win this hand and need to take as many of this guys chips as I can." I was afraid if I moved in right off the bat he might fold, so I went for the check-raise. (I'm not saying this was the right play, just explaining my thought process.)

Hood

06-17-2004, 10:37 AM

Hand 1: As it was already said, I would have played the same except for the bet amounts, which would have been bigger PF and flop.

Hand 2: Was this was a steal attempt PF? If so, then it's hard to judge whether it was correct as this tends to be based on the style of the table, but at only 25/50, with a decent stack, this seems unnessessary. And UTG isn't the best place to do this with so many players behind you. And it needs to be with 3x/4x BB.

If this bet was for value - with EP with suited connectors, I don't really play 'em in no-limit SNGs - and certainly not with a raise.

On the flop - what was the bet meant to achieve? You've got yourself a flush draw. With one player already all-in, you can't win the pot without showing your hand, so you can't bluff here. And with 2-1, you aren't betting for value. if you make your flush your happy for the player to be with you. I think this has got to be a check.

And poster above - he wasn't ahead up until the river, he caught his pair on the turn (hence was behind on the flop).

La Brujita

06-17-2004, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
After reviewing Hand Two I was so embarassed I almost didn't post it. (My only explanation for my play is that my wife and I had just had a fight [in laws coming to visit ], and I was still steaming.) In light of your comments, I'm glad I did.

Hand One: I raised pre-flop in part because I thought his bet was probably a steal, and also to get a better idea of his strength. When he called and then min bet the flop, I went from "I want to win the pot now" to "I'm KNOW going to win this hand and need to take as many of this guys chips as I can." I was afraid if I moved in right off the bat he might fold, so I went for the check-raise. (I'm not saying this was the right play, just explaining my thought process.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes think of myself as the king of the check raise because I love to cr so much against aggressive interent opponents. That being said, I am not sure this is the place to check raise because there are many hands drawing to a straight that you don't want to let see that fourth card freely. Any J or T might be drawing to a straight. You may well be up against a flush or a backdoor flush (made more likely since you don't have a heart). But if your read was he was going to bet after a check then a check raise is a good play.

My problem with your play is not so much the cr but rather the amount you bet thereafter. One of the main things I try to avoid in playing is incorrectly pricing my opponents in when I am ahead. I am just going to put an example below which is not unusual.

pokenum -h ad qs - - jh kc -- 4c 9h qh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4c Qh 9h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Ad 686 69.29 304 30.71 0 0.00 0.693
Kc Jh 304 30.71 686 69.29 0 0.00 0.307

His call on the flop would require calling 50 into a pot of 370. This call is easily correct even without the backdoor flush draw and even ignoring implied odds wrt the straight.

I guess I am making a long winded point to say you almost never "know you are going to win" a pot unless you flop a true monster. TPTK is not such a monster.

I also wanted to post because I might have given bad or at least weak advice inadvertantly in my original post. There is nothing wrong with the raise with AQ if you think your hand is good pre flop. The problem is 2/3 of the time you won't hit anything and with 25% of your stack in you are faced with some tough decisions. The decision on how to play depends on the likelihood you think your opponent is bluffing and how comfortable you are with post flop play. I guess the main point of the long paragraph is (i) I want to caveat that part of the first post and (ii) just reiterate that playing +ev poker on a hand for hand basis is the key to winning poker. If in your estimation a big raise with AQ is +ev then it is the right play. I gotta edit this to say I just looked at the stack size of the button. If I thought he was on a steal raise I would have strongly considered putting him all in preflop and putting him to the decision.

As a final note, people are much better off posting hands where they play bad then good, no need to be embarrased to post potential mistakes.

Jason Strasser

06-17-2004, 11:53 AM

Hi Sam,

My first thought about both these hands is that you need to review your bet sizes and such. My general rule is that if I am going to make a bet, that commits myself to a pot where I can really not fold on any other streets, then I push. As LaBrujita said, 35-40% of your stack is a good place to draw this line. I also like to think that if I have 8-10 BBs or less (depending on opponents and situation), I have two moves preflop, all in or fold.

To the hand.

The first one I completely do not understand. Reraising with AQo to an EP raiser is a questionable play. If you are going to do it, make a real raise (to 200 or so). I would tend not to make plays like this, because then I force myself to hit the flop. I'll call in this spot and see the flop. Min raising makes zero sense here, unless I am missing something.

On the flop, you need to make a real raise. I make it 250 to go. Eighty??? Why eighty? It may be possible that your opponent is on a flush draw, sometimes inexperienced players will min bet with draws so that they can *hopefully* see the later streets cheap. You have to charge any draws. Your hand is also good here a majority of the time, but its not invincible. I don't know if you were slowplaying or what, but I'd make a big raise to his 30 bet. You pushed after his reraise, good move.

This second hand is... interesting. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I don't understand any street really. Preflop it looks like a fold is in order, unless you think you will get enough cold callers behind you to make the hand profitable. So I guess table dynamics come into this. The min raise I would say is the worst possible play. Honestly, pushing all in is probably a better move EV wise than the min raise.

On the flop, with one player all in, I don't understand the bet. If you are going to make your flush, you have to assume your hand will be better than your opponents hand, AND the all in hand. If you miss, you have to assume your hand will be no good, and will lose to the all-in hand (tripling him up). So in a situation like this, you are doing the small stack a gigantic favor by betting. You are forcing a better hand to fold, and you are really not increasing your chance of winning the pot, because the all in player can likely beat nine high. You check this baby down. If you hit on the turn or river, value bet. Otherwise check it down. Betting the flop makes no sense to me.

Hope that helped, good luck.