Preflop Raising Conundrum

[ThePopinjay]

10 handed cash ring game, limit hold em. On the button you hold something like KQo, maybe even AQo will work for this example. You raise. This is a good move because it's +EV as you will take this pot down more than 10% of the time (assuming blinds stay in). Anyway, onto the flop, everyone's called your raise. You flop top pair, checked to you. You bet. Some call, some don't. The hand ends and you get beat by someone who flopped mid-pair and turned two-pair. You're pissed but realize you can't do anything about it because they had proper pot odds to call your flop bet.

What the hell can you do about this? I guess the question is, is it better to outplay your opponents preflop (raising on the button +EV move) or postflop (giving your opponents bad odds to chase). I ask this because I am a 2/4 player, and these types of situations occur frequently. I believe I am going to start doing the latter, and not raise in these small +EV situations preflop, and rather outplay my opponents postflop. What do you guys think? Please point out my flaws in thinking, or give your opinion, etc.

[sthief09]

I wouldn't raise KQo or AJo after 7 limpers.

[umdpoker]

damn, did the 2/4 get really soft again. last time i played there, only like 30% were seeing the flop.

[ThePopinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
damn, did the 2/4 get really soft again. last time i played there, only like 30% were seeing the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's all about table selection, some are super soft, most are semi-soft.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

When you are first in from late position with a hand like KQo or AQo you are making a much bigger mistake giving the free play to the BB than you are by correctly betting postflop when your opponents have correct odds to draw against you.

With big hands you gain more value by raising preflop than you give up postflop from the pot being big.

al

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell can you do about this? I guess the question is, is it better to outplay your opponents preflop (raising on the button +EV move) or postflop (giving your opponents bad odds to chase).

[/ QUOTE ]

This topic is addressed in depth in Hold'em For Advanced Players, in the loose games session. I believe this falls under the category of "pot manipulation" - you know you are likey to have the current best hand but you aren't raising pre-flop in order to reduce your opponent's odds to call a raise on the flop or turn.

One thing to consider is that a lot of the advantage of this technique is based on the assumption that your opponents are correctly considering pot odds when making their post flop calls. In other words, like much of HFAP, it assumes a somewhat higher caliber of opponent than you are likely to find in lower limit online games.

I don't fully understand this issue, and I may not even be paraphrasing it correctly. I know it is controversial and you can find plenty of threads discussing this issue in the current forums and in the archives.

I prefer a more straightforward ABC approach myself.

/mc

[cardcounter0]

Raise pre-flop. People calling your raise with inferior hands is good in the long run.

"The hand ends and you get beat by someone who flopped mid-pair and turned two-pair."

The odds of mid-pair turning two-pair is just as good as your top-pair turning two-pair.

If they don't make two pair you win. (aren't you glad you raised preflop?)
If they do make it and you don't - it is probably just bet/call and you lose. (aren't you glad you know about position?)
If you make it and they don't - they probably fold. (good thing you raised preflop)
If you both make it -- When you hit Top Pair and Second Pair -- I hope that not only have you raised preflop but you raise on the river -- makes up for the times you don't hit.

[Richie Rich]

Play NL and charge those who play to draw.