can i fold AKo? please?

keep in mind im talking about AKo here. NOT AKs.


10-20 loose game, plenty of bad players with weak starting standards.


loose utg (idiot) raises, 2 players cold call, blinds are loose,i have AKo. can i please just muck this here?


why should i continue to waste a BB here when these big unsuited cards have reverse implied odds in a big pot? even if i flop an ace i cant love it because the chance someone else has made aces up, or will make aces up, are strong. it's less likely for me to flop an A or K because these people believe KTo (and weaker kings) and any ace are definitely worth being in with in this raised pot. and my AK will not succeed unimproved. and a 3 bet here will not make some of the limpers or blinds fold. and i will NOT be able to bluff anyone on later streets. this may be a group 1 hand but it's just garbage in this sort of situation. why shouldnt i just muck it right there and then?

Mike,


Actually, unless I'm mistaken(no I'm not going to look it up), AKo is a group 2 hand. Whose permission are you asking? If you have confidence in your post-flop play you should certainly play this hand, in spite of your objections. If not, I suggest that you work on post-flop play. Wouldn't you raise this hand if those same three players limped to you? Ever? It's the same two bets, you have position over at least these three players and you have the added info that the first player has what he thinks is a raising hand and the other two have what they consider two-bet-cold hands, even if as you said, this info may be somewhat dubious. Of course, you don't HAVE to play this hand, but I think that you are passing up a +EV hand. Though you may only have a small edge, you owe it to yourself to play when you have any edge, otherwise, other players will begin to pick up on the fact that you only play with larger edges and this may begin to hurt your action, some of these weak players may actually adjust(I know this seems hard to believe, but I've seen this happen to "rocks") and take only their best hands up against you. Forgive me if I'm out of line, but your reluctance to play this hand seems to suggest a lack of confidence. Hope I'm mistaken, but if not, I hope that you are able to quickly overcome it.


Now if you're talking about calling three bets cold with AKo, then that's another story.


Good luck,


Mike

Folding in this spot is insane, period.

Boy - and I thought I played tight!

I would re raise in this spot.

Take a deep breath, prepare for a big pot and come in swinging - if you don't hit you are probably going to get out quick as someone else (with this large a field) will have hit.

I think the reverse implied odds only come into play when you can't get away from this hand if you miss the flop. Don't fall into the trap of using 'pot odds' to justify chasing when you miss against 4 players - check!!!

Just my Humble pie:)

I think you are passing on a very profitable situation here if you fold the AKo, and should usually be reraising against the loose raiser and weak cold callers.


There is a good chance you are dominating these players, especially since the cold callers may be likely to have reraised with an AKo themselves. If all 3 of these players have an ace or king, which you seem to be afraid of, this makes you roughly a 1.9:1 favorite to beat the field when everyone misses the flop (think of them as having 9 outs against you with their dominated kickers). If you pair on the flop, you much more often than not have the other players either dominated or drawing to 5 outers and runner runner hands.


Fearing someone will outflop you with aces or kings up is just crazy. There is only a 2.02% chance of flopping 2 pair with nonpair cards, and with you holding an ace yourself, the chance that someone with a weaker ace flops 2 pair goes down to 1.35% (and the same applies to someone with a weaker king).


If the blinds will call your reraise with weak A and K hands, this is better for you than when they call your reraise with pairs or suited connectors. You of course also don't mind when they fold and leave their dead money in the pot, so you should like your situation whether or not they call your reraise.


The reverse implied odds you are afraid of only apply to pairs and suited connectors when you are talking about preflop play with AKo. Against other (especially offsuit) nonpair hands, you actually have favorable implied odds and your opponents with these hands have reverse implied odds against you. This is because they are paying you off with the worse pair or kicker more often than you pay off their 2 pairs/trips.


The bottom line is that you will win more than your fair share of pots against these any-two-will-do folks, especially if you think they are in their with worse ace and king hands themselves. Don't forget that if you miss the flop you are allowed to give up when it either costs alot to continue or it looks like making an ace or king will no longer win it for you. You can also take free cards (as you usually should against 4+ opponents when checked to on the flop), or raise the flop to get free cards later when it seems likely to work.


I get the feeling from some of your more recent posts that you have been running bad, probably often with hands like AKo against bad players who suck out constantly. I completely understand why this can make you just want to give up as soon as you see these hands, and believe me I have had the same feelings when I am running bad. But ultimately, these are the hands that make you money, you just have to hang in there long enough for the cards to start running your way again. That said, the wait for lady misfortune to leave your side is incredibly unpleasant and stressful if you are becoming short-rolled.

You'd rather have AKo then AKs?!?!?!?


The thing about only making a flush 1in20 times isn't really all that relevant because there is lots of value in flopping the draw then pairing an A or K on the turn or river. Also sometimes you may flop an A or K, which is beaten by two pair or a set or something, but now you have a small chance still by backing into the flush if one of your suit flops, or you have a solid chance of course if you flop two in your suit plus your pair. Seems to me that the extra value is fairly significant. Being suited may indeed be overrated by a lot of people but that doesn't mean that it is worthless.

The fact that AKs will make a flush about one in twenty is not at all insignificant in multiway pots. It could mean a 25%increase in the number of pots you win in this situation. That being said, I would still not seriously consider folding AKo though I'm less thrilled with it than most of you.

Mike,


The AK offsuit might be giving you trouble lately in these multiway pots but it is just has too much high card strength to give up. Over time you will make big money with this hand with your good flops and redraws to the best two pair. But this hand and situation is very volatile so lately getting creamed with it may have you discouraged.


The other posters are giving good advice. But do keep in mind that in the spot you describe AK is a MUCH better than AQ and monumentally better than AJ. The same can't be said for smaller cards playing behind multiple opponents. Here 65 is just about as good as 87.


Regards,


Rick

I agree with what people are saying. Try running a sim on Wilson. Put in a passivish tight player like Cecily (I'm assuming from the post you are sort of passive and tight) and have her get AK every time. Put her up against a field that feels yours (it sounds like lineup 6). Run 100,000 hands through.


If you want even spike the situation, force one of the players to start with an A (that is 100% you have an Ace out against you).

I will fold AK, occasionally even AKs, when it is three bets to me and I have a pretty good read I am up against pocket Kings or

Aces. But even then my valor gets the best of me and

I'll still sometimes see the flop. Otherwise I think it is a big mistake for two small bets to be mucking slick and most of the time you should be making it three bets BTF.


Bruce

"Personally I'd rather have AKo than AKs-but that's just me."


This reminds of the advice given in the book on limit holdem by Tom McEvoy and TJ Cloutier covering "cash-game" strategies. They state that they prefer their connectors unsuited.


I think David Sklansky had the right idea when he stated that if you really feel this way you should simply pretend your suited connector is unsuited and play it that way. That way if you are so unfortunate enough as to make a flush you can simply throw it away or play it if you think it is good (a joke of course).

Mike:


"keep in mind im talking about AKo here. NOT AKs."


10-20 loose game, plenty of bad players with weak starting standards.


loose utg (idiot) raises, 2 players cold call, blinds are loose,i have AKo. can i please just muck


this here?


So at this point it sounds (with the blinds being so loose & all) that in all likelihood you'll be up against 5, not three idiots, who will indeed reverse imply odd you to death with small pairs, suited connectors or their favorite lucky numbers...


However when you add:


even if i flop an ace i cant love it because the chance someone else has


made aces up, or will make aces up, are strong.


Huh? I thought they had weak starting standards?


You clarify it when you say:


it's less likely for me to flop an A or K


because these people believe KTo (and weaker kings) and any ace are definitely worth being


in with in this raised pot.


Ok, so despite raises they're holding on to A-3o or K-To (or lower) thus cutting the # of aces and kings left---here I'm confused (as usual) since if they had gotten these hands and then mucked them, there would still be less aces and kings left, wouldn't there?


Granted if they're holding K-T and the flop is T-T-K you're drawing dead, but you'd be in the same boat if the flop was T-T-3, right? I mean all other things being equal it's better to have A-Ko than A-To . . .


Sounds like it's more of a question of what the hell do I do with a table of loose bad players who are not going to be intimidated by anything.


Sure AKo is far more vulnerable than AA but if they're THAT lose and out to lunch, Well. . .


Do you generally do much better against predictable weak/tight rocks? (I don't mean just in regards to playing A-Ko), I often wonder if we don't overestimate the value of playing against loose loons.


Regards.

Should I fold pocket Aces if it is capped to me and I am on the button?


Thanks

Scotty